Did the Belgians plan to use poison gas in 1940?

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daveh
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Did the Belgians plan to use poison gas in 1940?

#1

Post by daveh » 25 Sep 2008, 16:09

http://www.lexpev.nl/grenades/europe/belgium/350b.html

Makes mention of a Belgian grenade (Belgian designation unknown) called the Handgranate 350(b) by the Germans that
contained a dangerous gas of unknown origin.
The form of the grenade shown is very very similar to that of the Handgranate 330 (b) (Belgian designation unknown) which was a normal handgrenade with H.E, filling

The reference to a dangerous gas begs the question what, if any, plans did the Belgians have for the use of poison gases during the 1930s and in the 18 day campaign ?

peter u
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Re: Did the Belgians plan to use poison gas in 1940?

#2

Post by peter u » 25 Sep 2008, 20:01

Hello Daveh,

I think the granate in question was used as a rifle granate to through tear gas or some other form of anti riot gas in to a crowd of people.

Cheers,
Peter


daveh
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Re: Did the Belgians plan to use poison gas in 1940?

#3

Post by daveh » 27 Sep 2008, 16:34

Thanks again peter u

I had wondered if it might have been some form of smoke grenade given the small quantity of gas a grenade would produce.

I know Belgium was a signatory to the Geneva protocol banning the first use of gas. However the storage of gas was not prohibited and IIRC CHurchill said he was willing to order the use of Mustard Gas against a German landing in 1940. This, the original quote and the use of gas against the Belgians in WW1 were all part of the reason for asking my question.

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phylo_roadking
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Re: Did the Belgians plan to use poison gas in 1940?

#4

Post by phylo_roadking » 27 Sep 2008, 17:11

Dave, I wouldn't have thought a rifle grenade threw its munition far enough for it to be used for war gas??? As Peter says, more likely a chemical smoke round. Not just for combat use, but one that could have been used for TRAINING against gas.... :wink:

Carl Schwamberger
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Re: Did the Belgians plan to use poison gas in 1940?

#5

Post by Carl Schwamberger » 27 Sep 2008, 22:02

Phosphorus is often used as a component of smoke generating munitions. There are a number of different phosphorus compounds used. In the US artillery we had a projectile loaded with what we call "White Posphorus" for generating quick or hasty smoke. It was usually used for marking or spotting shots. We also had another smoke projectile for creating sustained smoke screens. It was loaded with a Hexachloroethane-zinc compund. Both the phosphorus and Hexachloroethane compunds have caustic qualities. that is the vapor or smoke from their burning will react with the mucus membranes and lung tissue damaging it. In ordinary concentrations in the open air this is little worse than the smoke from buring leaves or a cigarette. But in concentration it can react with enough sinus or lung tissue to create noticable caustic burns.

If this Belgian grenade is not a 'tear gas' grenade then it may be a smoke grenade using some sort of particualry nasty mix of phosphous or similar chemical.

daveh
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Re: Did the Belgians plan to use poison gas in 1940?

#6

Post by daveh » 28 Sep 2008, 15:31

Thanks for the suggestion Carl

daveh
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Re: Did the Belgians plan to use poison gas in 1940?

#7

Post by daveh » 27 Oct 2008, 17:59

While looking for details of the Belgian 18 day campaign I came across this, refering to the moving of supplies from a depot at Eeklo. I quote the original dutch (which I can't read) so hopefully someone can clarify the machine translation I give afterwards.
Tegen de ochtend van de 24e mei is het depot zo goed als leeg; de Duitsers zullen er nog enkel de niet meer gebruikte obussen van 40' aantreffen, alsmede granaten met toxische gassen.
By the morning of May 24, the depot as well as empty, the Germans, there will be no longer used only the shells of 40 'encounter, with grenades and toxic gases.
The first part seems clear enough: by the morning of the 24th of May the depot was emptied
but I am unsure of the exact meaning of the last part. I would like to be clear about the apparent reference to toxic gasses.
I am guessing that the Belgians moved all the supplies that were immediately useful to them and left items they were unlikely to use including toxic gasses ( in shells?)

help please.

The original quote is from a source quoting
http://users.skynet.be/fa101291/operati ... chelde.htm

daveh
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Re: Did the Belgians plan to use poison gas in 1940?

#8

Post by daveh » 24 Jan 2009, 22:41

On http://www.clham.org/050524.htm

in an article by Jules LEBEAU concerning gas warfare he makes mention of: (google translation)
In a table of ammunition associated with guns in the Belgian army, we find:

a) by 75 mm cannon T.R. (rapid fire):

toxic shells Number 5, painted green with white crown and bulging belt necessarily French type (peint en vert avec couronne blanche au renflement et à ceinture de forcement type français);

b) for the 75 mm cannon G.P.:

toxic shells Number 5, marking idem

c) for the 155 Schneider model 17:

toxic shells Number 5, marking idem

d) for the 17 LS 155 (Long Schneider model 17):

toxic shells Number 5, marking idem

The toxic shells No. 5 are responsible for toxic but violent fugitive. The products contained in these shells are very volatile. They are completely vaporize when the explosion of the projectile, forming a cloud that would give the lethal effects, but losing more or less rapidly with its efficiency in the thinner air.

Questions arise:

1. What were the units equipped with this material?

2. Which could give the order to use them?

3. What Happened to the ammunition and where were they stored?

The author of this article continues his research and (hopes to) find answers to these questions.

JBbelgium
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Re: Did the Belgians plan to use poison gas in 1940?

#9

Post by JBbelgium » 17 Sep 2014, 19:07

http://www.the-trench.org/wp-content/up ... elgium.pdf

I found this article on the Belgian use, production and destruction of toxic war gases during WW1 and WW2. Very interesting!
The Germans used gas against the Belgians in WW1. The Belgians bought toxic gases from the French and British to retaliate against these attacks. Belgium used toxic gases in the ginal allied offensive in 1918.

Belgium maintained chemical facilities to destroy old stocks during the interbellum. Apparantly they did have and produce toxic war gases in the last years before 1940. They were not used in may 1940 but transported to France. Well at least that's what the article says.

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