Belgium infantry weapons

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YAN
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Belgium infantry weapons

#1

Post by YAN » 07 Apr 2009, 15:21

Hi, I am compiling a list of infantry weapons for a wargame belgium infantry company, but I am stuck on the types of weapons used, see below for what I have so far.
Pistols = 7.65mm GP Pistol
S.M.G.s = ?
Carbines = ?
Rifles = 7.65mm Mauser M.1935
L.M.G.s = 7.65mm FN M.1930 (BAR)
M.M.G.s = infantry, 7.65mm Maxim M.1908 / Cavalry, 7.65mm Hotchkiss mle 1914
Grenades = ?
Grenade Lauchers =
Light Platoon Mortars =
A.t. Rifles = Boys ATR
Flame-throwers = ?
I am not sure about the exact modles I have above, I hope someone can correct or help me.
Thanks Yan.

daveh
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Re: Belgium infantry weapons

#2

Post by daveh » 07 Apr 2009, 16:50

Yans list plus details added in italics
Pistols = 7.65mm GP Pistol. Browning GP 35 plus the older FN 1910 and 1910/22
S.M.G.s = ? Peiper mle 1934 aka Peiper Bayard mle 1934 basically the German Bergmann MP28
Carbines = ? FN 1916
Rifles = 7.65mm Mauser M.1935 Belgian name FN modele 1935
L.M.G.s = 7.65mm FN M.1930 (BAR)
M.M.G.s = infantry, 7.65mm Maxim M.1908 / Cavalry, 7.65mm Hotchkiss mle 1914 none in the infantry company, these were used by the MG companies
Grenades = ? Offensive : O.F.; defensive: Mills (British design); rifle:V.B.
Grenade Lauchers = D.B.T.50
Light Platoon Mortars =The Belgians used D.B.T. "lance grenade" instead
A.t. Rifles = Boys ATR the Belgians did not have any Boyes AT rifles
Flame-throwers = ? I have seen no listing for a Belgian flamethrower. The infantry company definately did NOT have any.

An Active or First Reserve Compagnie de Fusiliers

DBT 50 Lance Grenade
Flare Pistol: Hebel 26.65mm
Pistol: FN 1910 or 1910/22
and Browning GP 35
SMG: Pieper mle 1934
Rifles : FN 1935/35
MG: FM 30

Second reserve Compagnie de Fusiliers

Flare Pistol: Hebel 26.65mm
Pistol: FN1900
Rifle: FN 1889/16
Lebel fitted for VB rifle grenades
Carbines: FN 1916
MG: Chauchat FM1915/27

Other infantry type units such as those found in the the Chasseur Ardennais and Cycliste Frontiere had the same range of weapons as the Active Infantry Companies.

Information on these weapons can be found in the various Fact Files by P.Chamberlain and T.Gander and in Small Arms Artillery and Special Weapons of the Third Reich by the same authors


daveh
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Re: Belgium infantry weapons

#3

Post by daveh » 07 Apr 2009, 16:53

May I ask what information you have on the organisation of the Belgian Infantry Company?

YAN
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Re: Belgium infantry weapons

#4

Post by YAN » 07 Apr 2009, 17:15

Hi Daveh, this is the basic infantry company I have come up with (with the help on the internet) it is not complete yet due to lack of data.
Company H.Q.
No data

Three infantry platoons + one M.M.G. platoon

Infantry platoon
Platoon H.Q.
No data

Four infantry sections
One rifle squad = 1 x NCO + 5 Men and 1 x light 50mm mortar team of two men
L.M.G. squad = 1 x NCO + 4 x Men and 1 x L.M.G. Man
M.M.G. platoon
Platoon H.Q.
No data
Two M.M.G. Sections with 1 x M.M.G. each
No data on strength.

That’s how far I have got.
Yan.

daveh
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Re: Belgium infantry weapons

#5

Post by daveh » 07 Apr 2009, 17:56

Assuming you are intending to war game part of the 18 day campaign the details you have refer to an earlier pre war organisation.

The following applied by May 1940 :

Infantry Company in an Active or First Reserve Infantry Division consisted of a support platoon and 3 infantry platoons

(all figures are Officers + NCOs + men)

Overall Company strength
4 + 19 + 207 = 230

Support platoon
1 + 4 + 30 = 35

First echelon 1 + 1 + 10 = 12

Command element: 1 + 1 + 2 = 4; equipped with 2 pistols and 2 SMG
Signals element: 0 + 0 + 5 = 5; equipped with 5 rifles
Observation element: 0 + 0 + 3 = 3; equipped with 3 rifles

Second Echelon 0 + 1 + 11 = 12
Ammunition supply
all had rifles
2 draft horses and one horse drawn vehicle

Third echelon 0 + 2 + 9 = 11
Food equipment and baggage
2 with pistols and 9 with rifles
4 draft horses and 2 horse drawn vehicles
1 heavy truck

and 12 bicycles in total in the support platoon

3 Platoons (Pelotons de Fusiliers) each 1 + 5 + 59 = 65

Platoon HQ 1 + 0 + 2 = 3
1 pistol, 2 rifles

Equipe de Lance- Grenades 0 + 1 + 9
with 4 pistols, 6 rifles and 3 D.B.T. 50

and

4 Groupes de Combat each 0 + 1 + 12 =13

and each consisting of

1 sergeant in command and

Equipe FM: 0 + 0 + 6 = 6
1 corporal and 5 men with 1 FM 30 LMG, 1 pistol and 4 rifles

Equipe FG: 0 + 0 + 6 = 6
1 corporal and 5 men all with rifles

Note the infantry company of a Second Reserve Infantry Division was very different.

YAN
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Re: Belgium infantry weapons

#6

Post by YAN » 07 Apr 2009, 18:06

Thank you very much Daveh, I have been searching for that type of detailed info for quite some time now.
Yan.

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The Edge
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Re: Belgium infantry weapons

#7

Post by The Edge » 08 Apr 2009, 09:20

daveh wrote: Chauchat FM1915/27
That "27" marking - 7,65mm version or just some peacetime cosmetics? :roll:

Platoons (“Pelotons de Fusiliers”) had FIVE squads? :o (one “Equipe de Lance- Grenades” and four “Groupes de Combat”)
No wonder they could let go 20% personel on leave.

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Re: Belgium infantry weapons

#8

Post by daveh » 08 Apr 2009, 14:58

The Belgians modified the French Mitrailleur Mle1915 Chauchat by replacing the original half moon shaped magazine with a new straight box magazine and adapting it to the standard Belgian 7.65mm round. I assume the /27 refers to these modifications.

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Re: Belgium infantry weapons

#9

Post by daveh » 08 Apr 2009, 16:19

from http://www.bayonetstrength.150m.com/
which looks at the organisation of the battalion in a number of WW2 armies and
http://enpointe.perso.infonie.fr/di.html.
which details French divisional organisation

we can derive the following comparisons:

British Platoon 1939-40
HQ of 5 men
3 rifle sections each of 8 men
Total = 29 men

1 MG per section, no mortars

Note that one of the 3 platoons forming a British company had an officer at Platoon HQ for a total of 1 officer and 5 men

German Platoon 1939-40
HQ 1 officer and 3 men
1 light mortar section 3 men
3 rifle squads each 13 men
Total = 46 men

1 MG per squad, 1 rifle grenade per squad, 1 50mm mortar per platoon

French platoon
HQ 5 men
3 squads each 1 sergeant and 11 men
Total = 41 men

1 MG per squad, 1 VB rifle grenade per squad

The French intended to replace the VB rifle grenade launcher with a 50mm mortar (in a similar move to that already undertaken by the Belgians). The new platoon would have had

HQ: 4 men
3 rifle squads each 11 men
1 mortar squad with 1 50mm mortar and 4 men
Total = 41 men

1 MG per squad, 1 50mm mortar per platoon

Belgian Platoon
HQ 3 men
4 squads each 1 sergeant and 12 men
1 section of 10 men with 3 50mm DBT
Total = 65 men

1 MG per squad, 3 50mm D.B.T. per platoon

Platoon Manpower comparisons

British: 30 men
German: 46 men
French: 41 men
Belgian: 65 men

The Belgian platoon comes out as about 19 men stronger than the German platoon and 24 men stronger than a French platoon.
The extra men in the Belgian platoons deriving from
1) a fourth rifle squad.
2) a much larger "mortar" (i.e. D.B.T.) section.
3 a slightly stronger squad than found in the French platoon.

The Belgian platoon is over twice the size of a British platoon because of the much larger squad size and the extra squad.

Platoon Firepower comparisons
British: 3 MGs, 0 rifle grenade launchers 0 50mm mortar
German: 3 MGs, 3 rifle grenade launchers 1 50mm mortar
French: 3 MGs, 3 rifle grenade launchers 0 50mm mortar
Belgian: 4 MGs, 0 rifle grenade launchers 3 50mm mortar

The British, French and Belgian MGs were similar in performance while the German had a much higher rate of fire.
The 50 mm D.B.T. grenade launchers provided a heavier and longer range source of firepower than the 3 rifle grenade launchers of the French or German platoons and the extra 2 50 mm weapons comapred with the single German 50 mm mortar gave greater flexibility and firepower.
To achieve this extra firepower a Belgian platoon was c 40% larger than a German platoon.

daveh
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Re: Belgium infantry weapons

#10

Post by daveh » 08 Apr 2009, 16:37

YAN
My pleasure.
Having spent many happy, and some frustrating, hours looking for this type of information I have finally found much of what I was looking for in terms of the organisation and equipment of Belgian Army units in the 18 day campaign and am happy to share my findings.

The vast majority of this information comes from French and to a lesser extent Duch sources and is of course very heavily dependant on the published work of others for which I am very thankful. The information on Belgian organisation is principally based on the work of Eric Simon.

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The Edge
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Re: Belgium infantry weapons

#11

Post by The Edge » 08 Apr 2009, 16:57

http://www.lexpev.nl/grenades/europe/be ... dedbt.html
(Just to know what we're talking about)

Ten years ago I heard about following re-structure of Serbian infantry platoons:
- three "assault" squads (rifles, two AK-type SAWs, few LAWSs)
- one LMG squad (two GPMG teams)
- one Light mortar squad (two 60mm mortar teams)

I thought this was too much (about 50 men in total), but obviously I was wrong.
(Btw, nothing come from this - 60mm mortars are out of use, replaced with 40/30mm granade launchers, one GPMG is in each squad and more potent AT weapons are added; Not to mention, but understandable - there is not enough men for such extravagance)

Best regards,
Edge / Antic
All good things in life are either illegal, or immoral, or make you fat.

YAN
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Re: Belgium infantry weapons

#12

Post by YAN » 08 Apr 2009, 17:29

Hi guys, this is a treasure trove of info, when in combat did the Belgians split there squads like the british sections did with the LMG squad covering the advance of the rifle squad and did the 50mm mortar stay with the HQ section or sighted by the section NCO.
Thanks Yan.

daveh
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Re: Belgium infantry weapons

#13

Post by daveh » 08 Apr 2009, 19:01

I have not as yet got round to translating, using my poor schoolboy French, the various pieces of information I have relating to your question.

I have something entitled Extraits de l'Instruction relative aux Sections de D.B.T. des Bataillons d'Infanterie. which should detail the tactical use of the D.B.T. and is relatively short so hopefully I can translate anything of interest quite soon

As regards the tactical use of Belgian Army small units I know of something entitled La conduite des petites unites d'infantrie which is a Belgian Army publication issued pre WW2 to help instruct officers.

If I can find a copy on line I will try making sense of it. I would suspect that Belgian practice mirrored that of the French (whatever that is :D)

YAN
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Re: Belgium infantry weapons

#14

Post by YAN » 09 Apr 2009, 11:23

Sorry Daveh it's me again, I have been putting together my Belgian infantry company going on the info so far and I cannot work out the company HQ line up, I have given eacn infantry platoon an officer each, that leaves one officer for the CHQ but with what staff I am unsure, but that leaves the support platoon without an officer.
was it common also in the belgian army to arm there NCOs with just pistols.
I have not started on the support platoon yet, dose it contain two M.M.G.s or do they have any 81mm Mortars.
Regards and Thanks Yan.

daveh
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Re: Belgium infantry weapons

#15

Post by daveh » 09 Apr 2009, 15:39

The company has

4 officers: namely the company commander and the 3 platoon commanders.

2 sous officier d'elite:
1 assisting the company commander in the command element
1 commanding the 3rd echelon of the support platoon i.e. the food/equipment and baggage supply

17 Sergeants
1 commanded each groupe in the platoon,
1 commanded the D.B.T. section
1 commanded the 2nd echelon of the support platoon i.e. ammunition supply
1 assisted in commanding the 3rd echelon of the support platoon i.e. the food/equipment and baggage supply

The support platoon
To clarify the support platoon provides the command, signalling, supply and administrative support for the company.
The support platoon was divided into 3 echelons which undertook 3 separate functions

1st Echelon: Command and included the company commander and his assistant.
2nd echelon: Ammunition supply, commanded by a sergeant
3rd echelon : food/equipment and baggage supply, commanded by a sous officier d'elite assisted by a sergeant

The company commander and his deputy issued orders to the other elements of the support platoon as needed as well as directing the 3 platoons.

Weapons of the Company

The officers and sous officers d'elite had pistols.

All the sergeants had rifles except for the sergeant in command of the D.B.T. section who had a pistol.

The other pistol armed men were:
The loader for each MG
The firer for each D.B.T.

Flare pistols:
the 2 men in the platoon HQ (they also had rifles)

Sub machine guns
2 men in the command echelon of the support paltoon

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