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Belgian weapon stocks:new figures...new problems

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Belgian weapon stocks:new figures...new problems

Postby daveh on 04 Sep 2009 17:35

In Order of battle: Western Allied Forces of WWII by Michael E. Haskew, page 34 there is a table giving s
the following figures for the strength of the Belgian Army in May 1940.

Troops............................................550000
Automatic Weapons...............................8640
A T weapons.........................................324
Heavy Artillery.......................................384
Tanks..................................................42

Infantry Corps..........................................7
Cavalry Corps...........................................1

Infantry Divisions.....................................20
Cavalry Divisions.......................................2
Bicycle Battalions......................................3

As i have an interest in the Belgian Army of this period I looked carefully at these figures in case they provided any new information. The good news is that they did, however the bad news is that some of this information is, I would argue, incorrect.

I will therefore go through each of the figures provided giving my current state of knowledge and its sources and comparing these with the figures Haskew provides.

1) Overall strength
I have seen various figures quoted for the strength of the Belgian Army in May 1940 but they are generally in the range 550,000 up to 650,000. The latter figure seems to include numbers of men called up for training and sent to France.
Hence the figure of 550,000 is perfectly acceptable

2) Automatic weapons
I have no source giving a figure for the overall stocks of such weapons held by the Belgian Army. My study of the reliability of the figures Haskew gives is in part designed to check how accurate this number may be.

3) Anti tank weapons
The number given by Haskew is 324 and I cannot see how he obtains this figure.

The only AT gun used by the Belgian Field Army was the FRC 47mm. This same gun was mounted on the T13 and used in fixed defences. A 60mm AT gun was used solely in fortifications.

Haskew lists the Niehorster website (http://niehorster.orbat.com/021_belgium/__belgium.htm) in his sources and if we look at the details given for the Belgian Active Infantry Division we can see that each such division had one AT company in each of its 3 Infantry Regiments plus an additional AT company at divisional level.
i.e. 4 AT companies per division

Niehorster gives 8 guns per AT company so this gives a figure of

4 (AT companies) x 12 (active divisions) x 8 (guns per company) = 384 guns

and then there are AT companies in the Cavalry and Chasseur Ardennais Divisions as well as various other units e.g. the Cycliste Frontiere giving a total of at least 400 guns.

Furthermore the wartime establishment for a Belgian AT company was in fact 12 guns (see note below) giving us 576 guns in just the 12 Infantry divisions. Including the AT companies of other units the figure for AT guns in the Belgian Army climbs to the mid 600s and this excludes all such weapons mounted in fortifications.
On
http://www.militarymodelling.com/news/a ... asp?a=3476 production of the 47 mm AT gun is put at 1000 which would include c 250 for use on the T-13. This leaves c 750 for use in fortifications and with the field army. It is unclear where Haskew obtained his figures but this well attested figure of c 750 is well over double the 324 given by Haskew.

Note
12 AT guns per AT company see e.g. http://www.freewebs.com/3th-chasseurs-a ... ations.htm, AMI 9_Mai 40_Le régiment d'infanterie.pdf

4) Heavy Artillery: Number given is 384

This number matches that derived from
L'Artillerie de Campagne Belge au 10 Mai 1940 by Lt.-Col. A Bikar

Artillery Piece................Number......Corps or Army Artillery Regiment

120mm guns .................48......... Corps
120mm de Bange..............4......... Army

Obusiers de 150 (6").........80.......... 8 Corps 72 Army
Obusiers de 155.............144.......... Army
canons de 150 ou
de 155.........................72.......... Army

mortiers de 220...............36........... Army

Total ...........................384

although it should be noted that there were also 12 railway guns and 20 heavy guns in artillery schools


5) Number of Tanks is given as 42.

In the text on p.34 these 42 operational tanks are said to include T-13s, T-15s and ACG-1s all of which are given brief, accurate descriptions.
However the number given is incorrect.
a) As stated in the text 8 ACG-1s were used operationally
b) 42 T15s were purchased and all but 1 school vehicle were issued to front line units
c) The T-13 was not a tank but rather a self propelled 47mm AT gun and numbered at least 250

More accurately the number of operational tanks should be given as c50 plus a further c 250 SP AT guns

6) Infantry Corps: 7
Yes

7) Cavalry Corps: 1
Yes

8) Infantry divisions: 20
This is somewhat misleading. There were 6 Active and 6 First Reserve Infantry Divisions that had virtually identical establishments, plus 6 Second Reserve Infantry Divisions which had a lower establishment and tended to use older equipment.
Included with the Infantry Divisions are 2 Chasseur Ardennais Divisions. These units were bicycle equipped mobile units quite different in function and organisation to the "ordinary" infantry divisions.
They regarded as elite units and cannot really be regarded as infantry divisions.

9) Cavalry Divisions
There were indeed 2 cavalry divisions but there was also a fully motorised cavalry brigade

10) 3 bicycle battalions.
The inclusion of these 3 bicycle battalions may seem odd given the general tone of this short piece on the Belgian Army. These units are in fact part of a specially established "border guard" which in May 1940 consisted of 2 Cycliste Frontiere Regiments (2 battalions each) and the Limbourg cyclist battalion i.e. 5 battalions in total.

There were also 2 light regiments which were mobile units as well as territorial and auxiliary units.

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Re: Belgian weapon stocks:new figures...new problems

Postby ljadw on 04 Sep 2009 19:23

Frieser in "the Blitzkrieg legend" P 38 gives for the Belgian Army about 270 armoured combat vehcles (mostly T 13 and T 15 )

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Re: Belgian weapon stocks:new figures...new problems

Postby ljadw on 04 Sep 2009 20:08

daveh wrote:In Order of battle: Western Allied Forces of WWII by Michael E. Haskew, page 34 there is a table giving s
the following figures for the strength of the Belgian Army in May 1940.

Troops............................................550000
Automatic Weapons...............................8640
A T weapons.........................................324
Heavy Artillery.......................................384
Tanks..................................................42

Infantry Corps..........................................7
Cavalry Corps...........................................1

Infantry Divisions.....................................20
Cavalry Divisions.......................................2
Bicycle Battalions......................................3

As i have an interest in the Belgian Army of this period I looked carefully at these figures in case they provided any new information. The good news is that they did, however the bad news is that some of this information is, I would argue, incorrect.

I will therefore go through each of the figures provided giving my current state of knowledge and its sources and comparing these with the figures Haskew provides.

1) Overall strength
I have seen various figures quoted for the strength of the Belgian Army in May 1940 but they are generally in the range 550,000 up to 650,000. The latter figure seems to include numbers of men called up for training and sent to France.
Hence the figure of 550,000 is perfectly acceptable

2) Automatic weapons
I have no source giving a figure for the overall stocks of such weapons held by the Belgian Army. My study of the reliability of the figures Haskew gives is in part designed to check how accurate this number may be.

3) Anti tank weapons
The number given by Haskew is 324 and I cannot see how he obtains this figure.

The only AT gun used by the Belgian Field Army was the FRC 47mm. This same gun was mounted on the T13 and used in fixed defences. A 60mm AT gun was used solely in fortifications.

Haskew lists the Niehorster website (http://niehorster.orbat.com/021_belgium/__belgium.htm) in his sources and if we look at the details given for the Belgian Active Infantry Division we can see that each such division had one AT company in each of its 3 Infantry Regiments plus an additional AT company at divisional level.
i.e. 4 AT companies per division

Niehorster gives 8 guns per AT company so this gives a figure of

4 (AT companies) x 12 (active divisions) x 8 (guns per company) = 384 guns

and then there are AT companies in the Cavalry and Chasseur Ardennais Divisions as well as various other units e.g. the Cycliste Frontiere giving a total of at least 400 guns.

Furthermore the wartime establishment for a Belgian AT company was in fact 12 guns (see note below) giving us 576 guns in just the 12 Infantry divisions. Including the AT companies of other units the figure for AT guns in the Belgian Army climbs to the mid 600s and this excludes all such weapons mounted in fortifications.
On
http://www.militarymodelling.com/news/a ... asp?a=3476 production of the 47 mm AT gun is put at 1000 which would include c 250 for use on the T-13. This leaves c 750 for use in fortifications and with the field army. It is unclear where Haskew obtained his figures but this well attested figure of c 750 is well over double the 324 given by Haskew.

Note
12 AT guns per AT company see e.g. http://www.freewebs.com/3th-chasseurs-a ... ations.htm, AMI 9_Mai 40_Le régiment d'infanterie.pdf

4) Heavy Artillery: Number given is 384

This number matches that derived from
L'Artillerie de Campagne Belge au 10 Mai 1940 by Lt.-Col. A Bikar

Artillery Piece................Number......Corps or Army Artillery Regiment

120mm guns .................48......... Corps
120mm de Bange..............4......... Army

Obusiers de 150 (6").........80.......... 8 Corps 72 Army
Obusiers de 155.............144.......... Army
canons de 150 ou
de 155.........................72.......... Army

mortiers de 220...............36........... Army

Total ...........................384

although it should be noted that there were also 12 railway guns and 20 heavy guns in artillery schools


5) Number of Tanks is given as 42.

In the text on p.34 these 42 operational tanks are said to include T-13s, T-15s and ACG-1s all of which are given brief, accurate descriptions.
However the number given is incorrect.
a) As stated in the text 8 ACG-1s were used operationally
b) 42 T15s were purchased and all but 1 school vehicle were issued to front line units
c) The T-13 was not a tank but rather a self propelled 47mm AT gun and numbered at least 250

More accurately the number of operational tanks should be given as c50 plus a further c 250 SP AT guns

6) Infantry Corps: 7
Yes

7) Cavalry Corps: 1
Yes

8) Infantry divisions: 20
This is somewhat misleading. There were 6 Active and 6 First Reserve Infantry Divisions that had virtually identical establishments, plus 6 Second Reserve Infantry Divisions which had a lower establishment and tended to use older equipment.
Included with the Infantry Divisions are 2 Chasseur Ardennais Divisions. These units were bicycle equipped mobile units quite different in function and organisation to the "ordinary" infantry divisions.
They regarded as elite units and cannot really be regarded as infantry divisions.

9) Cavalry Divisions
There were indeed 2 cavalry divisions but there was also a fully motorised cavalry brigade

10) 3 bicycle battalions.
The inclusion of these 3 bicycle battalions may seem odd given the general tone of this short piece on the Belgian Army. These units are in fact part of a specially established "border guard" which in May 1940 consisted of 2 Cycliste Frontiere Regiments (2 battalions each) and the Limbourg cyclist battalion i.e. 5 battalions in total.

There were also 2 light regiments which were mobile units as well as territorial and auxiliary units.

Daveh,I have the following from a Dutch (!) site:Tanks :30 T 15 ,12 AMC 35 Renault ,the T 13 was the equivalent of a Pz I.A division had 324 light machine-guns Browning model 1930 calibre 7.62 ,144 old heavy machine-guns Maxim calibre 7.65 ,36 morters of 76 mm,32 of 75 mm and 16 howitzers of 1O5 mm .Total artillery :1300 ;anti-tank guns :60 of 47 mm (SAFRC ) of which some were builded in casemates and others on the T13 (Vickers Cordon-Lloyd) . Rifles :standard weapon:mauser 1935 (7.65) 2nd reserve Mauser 1889(7.65 ),but most of those were totally worn . Carabines:model 1889 and 1916 (7.65 ) .Cheers

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Re: Belgian weapon stocks:new figures...new problems

Postby ljadw on 04 Sep 2009 20:33

From another site in Dutch: There were 200 T13 ,type 1 :open at the top,type 2 :closed at the top .T 15 :this site is giving 45 and says that only 8 of the 12 Renault tans were delivered ;there were also old French handmachineguns (Chauchat) . The heavy artillery was largely obsolete ,there were 20 different sorts(French,British and even German ones :12 railwayguns ) This site is giving some interesting pictures,but I can't scan them(my scanner is still unpacked,I do not know how to install :( ,will ask the younger generation :) )That's all for the moment . Cheers

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Re: Belgian weapon stocks:new figures...new problems

Postby ljadw on 04 Sep 2009 20:48

Forgot one thing:the men called up and sent to France for training:the so called Crab's(Centre de recrutement de l'armée belge -in those days all in the Belgian army was in French) :I do not know their number, but you can forget them promptly :none recieved any military instruction,most of them were bored stiff and chased the French girls :D Cheers again.

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Re: Belgian weapon stocks:new figures...new problems

Postby daveh on 07 Sep 2009 13:00

interesting information ljadw, could you please provide a link to the sites you have used.
Thanks
daveh

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Re: Belgian weapon stocks:new figures...new problems

Postby ljadw on 07 Sep 2009 14:36

daveh wrote:interesting information ljadw, could you please provide a link to the sites you have used.
Thanks
daveh
Daveh:the sites are the following : De toestand van het Belgisch leger voor de 18-daagse veldtocht and De defensie in Belgie (Zuidfront Holland ) mei 1940

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Re: Belgian weapon stocks:new figures...new problems

Postby ljadw on 08 Sep 2009 18:11

Daveh:I found at last an English site :D :akirk / tanks / bel

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Re: Belgian weapon stocks:new figures...new problems

Postby The Edge on 09 Sep 2009 12:35

http://www.bunkergordel.be/3-0-Het%20Be ... 0leger.htm

Very nice photos! :D (Sadly, no possible to enlarge them :( )

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Re: Belgian weapon stocks:new figures...new problems

Postby daveh on 13 Sep 2009 16:52

ok automatic weapons:

Each Active and 1st reserve infantry regiments (36 in total) had
108 FN MG
48 maxims
= 3888 FNs and 1728 maxims

Each Second reserve infantry regiment (18 in total)
108 chauchat
36 Colt
= 1944 Chauchat and 648 Colt

Total 8208

The total of automatic weapons given is 8640 i.e. only 432 more...and there are the 2 Chasseur Ardennais divisions, 2 Cavalry divisions a cavalry brigade, MGs in the light regiments, artillery regiments, engineer regiments etc etc...all with varying numbers of automatic weapons.

Overall then of the 10 categories that Haskew gives numbers for
I agree with:
overall number of troops, number of heavy artillery, infantry corps , cavalry corps, cavalry divisions

disagree with:
automatic weapons, AT guns, tanks, infantry divisions (misleading), bicycle battalions

and of these it would be difficult to get the number of infantry corps , cavalry corps, and cavalry divisions wrong.
The infantry divisions may just be a question of saving space rather than an error...

I am still curious as to where the figures for automatic weapons and AT guns come from as knowing the source may help to amke the figures useful..e.g. they are numbers equipping units at a peacetime establishment.

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Re: Belgian weapon stocks:new figures...new problems

Postby Andy H on 17 Sep 2009 17:14

Hi daveh

I have no real knowledge to offer on this conundrum but i found this on the net, and maybe it will go some way to explaining the possible difference concerning AT weapons

From 1940 1 in 6 Battalions get 1 Boys AT rifle per platoon.
At regimental level:
A/T Company 6 47mm SA-FRC guns + Vickers Armstrong Utility tractors

http://www-solar.mcs.st-and.ac.uk/~aaro ... /belg.html

It does not state when in May 1940 the above was or intended to start. So maybe never, in full or jusr partially!

Regards

Andy H

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Re: Belgian weapon stocks:new figures...new problems

Postby daveh on 18 Sep 2009 13:04

viewtopic.php?f=85&t=140063&start=0 discusses whether the Belgians had any Boys AT rifles. The answer is no.

As regards the number of AT guns in an anti tank company I have seen the following numbers:
6 as shown on http://www-solar.mcs.st-and.ac.uk/~aaro ... /belg.html
8 as shown on Niehorster http://niehorster.orbat.com/021_belgium ... v-inf.html
12 from a study by Eric Simon giving the full break down of an Active Infantry Regiment in May 1940.

Reasons for the variation:

1) Site is quoting a peacetime organisation
2) Site is quoting a war time footing organistaion
3) Site is quoting organisations from different periods within the inter war years up to May 1940.

I have not been able to identify the sources the various sites use so I have not been able to definitively determine exactly what organisation is being quoted.

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Re: Belgian weapon stocks:new figures...new problems

Postby Delwin on 06 Oct 2009 13:07

I have extra question: what was the level of motorisation in Belgian army ? Judging from the Niehorster site, the Active Infantry Divisions is well equipped with motorised vehicles: service units, communication units, AT and AA but what was the general number of the vehicles/horses in the Belgian Infantry Division (in Belgian Army in general) ? What about the artillery regiments and engineers especially ?

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Re: Belgian weapon stocks:new figures...new problems

Postby daveh on 06 Oct 2009 14:05


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Re: Belgian weapon stocks:new figures...new problems

Postby Delwin on 28 Oct 2009 12:00

Thanks - it seems that we look for the same data (number of the vehicles in the infantry division).

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