Hi Idomeneas,
Me again....just one more thing, the Greek Navy would never place brand new 37mm Flaks on a coastal fort. Why would they when they could outfit some of their ships with newer guns, and place older 1pdrs (37mm) on shore establishments. So they must have been placed on various ships (not the Hydra class Destroyers), they had Vickers Terni 40mm/39 (2pdrs) - Italian built Vickers 2pdr pom poms Model 1930.
Stavros.
Greek Artillery 1941
Re: Greek Artillery 1941
Idomeneas, getting back to you on your last post:
Tobacco, Arms and Politics; (see page 70): The numbers of guns I listed (33 x 88mm, 127 x 37mm and 97 x 20mm) is as per the book. Your reasoning makes good sense; that higher calibres would be ordered in smaller quantities, because of the price difference for one thing.
What I do know is that the Greek Navy did not use 20mm AA onboard their ships as standard AA guns, also highlighting what you have said in the above post, that they (if received) were probably for the Army.
So the initial order for the extra 54 x 37mm AA, (compared to what Greece received) may have been for naval use. The Greek Navy used 40mm AA guns (pre April 1941) as their standard naval AA (excluding Armoured Cruiser Averoff which had 3 x 1pdrs (37mm) onboard (I don’t think they were Rheinmetall, I’ll check and get back to you on this) and 4 x 3” Heavy AAA. So maybe the Greek Navy was looking at changing their AA to a standard gun across their front line fleet (just a theory),
6 x Cruiser Averoff
4 x Light Cruiser Elli
4 x Thyella class (2 x 2 ships)
4 x Niki class (2 x 2 ships)
16 x Aetos class (4 x 4 ships)
0 x Hydra class (they already had quite modern, Vickers Terni - 3 x 40mm/39 C30 each vessel).
16 x Vasilefs Georgios class (4 x 4 ships) – only 2 ships built, totalling 8 x Rh.37mm received.
4 x Torpedo Depot Ship Heiphaistios
Or something to this effect. The above numbers show that this intention is possible.
The only 20mm guns onboard Greek naval vessels were fitted to Greece’s existing ships after they escaped to Egypt (refitted in Alexandria I think, and some in Bombay, India) later on in the war, or already onboard the replacement vessels the Greek Navy acquired from Great Britain. These were the 20mm Oerlikons.
Regards,
Stavros.
Tobacco, Arms and Politics; (see page 70): The numbers of guns I listed (33 x 88mm, 127 x 37mm and 97 x 20mm) is as per the book. Your reasoning makes good sense; that higher calibres would be ordered in smaller quantities, because of the price difference for one thing.
What I do know is that the Greek Navy did not use 20mm AA onboard their ships as standard AA guns, also highlighting what you have said in the above post, that they (if received) were probably for the Army.
So the initial order for the extra 54 x 37mm AA, (compared to what Greece received) may have been for naval use. The Greek Navy used 40mm AA guns (pre April 1941) as their standard naval AA (excluding Armoured Cruiser Averoff which had 3 x 1pdrs (37mm) onboard (I don’t think they were Rheinmetall, I’ll check and get back to you on this) and 4 x 3” Heavy AAA. So maybe the Greek Navy was looking at changing their AA to a standard gun across their front line fleet (just a theory),
6 x Cruiser Averoff
4 x Light Cruiser Elli
4 x Thyella class (2 x 2 ships)
4 x Niki class (2 x 2 ships)
16 x Aetos class (4 x 4 ships)
0 x Hydra class (they already had quite modern, Vickers Terni - 3 x 40mm/39 C30 each vessel).
16 x Vasilefs Georgios class (4 x 4 ships) – only 2 ships built, totalling 8 x Rh.37mm received.
4 x Torpedo Depot Ship Heiphaistios
Or something to this effect. The above numbers show that this intention is possible.
The only 20mm guns onboard Greek naval vessels were fitted to Greece’s existing ships after they escaped to Egypt (refitted in Alexandria I think, and some in Bombay, India) later on in the war, or already onboard the replacement vessels the Greek Navy acquired from Great Britain. These were the 20mm Oerlikons.
Regards,
Stavros.
Re: Greek Artillery 1941
Hi Stoly01,
I made a research on the AA guns ordered by Greece to Germany before the WWII.
First, for the 88mm flaks there is no doubt that, they were delivered 39 units to the Army (21+3) and Navy (9+6).
For the 37mm flaks the Army received 54 in total (50+4), while the Navy ordered 20 for coastal defence and 30 more for the new destroyers. In a document I found, it is clearly stated that the initial order for the 20, was intented to cover the coastal defence. In a list of the available aa guns in greek arsenal, these 20 37mm navy flaks are also included. Regarding the other 30, I found that they were ordered on September 1937 and it is clearly stated that they were to equip the new destroyers. Initially the Navy requested 20 for the 4 destroyers ordered in UK but this plan was cancelled and a new order for 30 units was placed.
For the 20mm flaks, the Army received 52 in total (50+2) of light chassie from Rheinmetall and 56 (26+1+29) of heavy chassie from Berlin Suhler Waffen und Fahrzengwerke.
This last detail (the Berlin Suhler Waffen und Fahrzengwerke company) makes me wondering if they were flak 30s, like the 52 bought from Rheinmetall, or of a different type.
Another order for 72 more 20mm flaks of light chassie was nevel fullfiled.
Idomeneas
I made a research on the AA guns ordered by Greece to Germany before the WWII.
First, for the 88mm flaks there is no doubt that, they were delivered 39 units to the Army (21+3) and Navy (9+6).
For the 37mm flaks the Army received 54 in total (50+4), while the Navy ordered 20 for coastal defence and 30 more for the new destroyers. In a document I found, it is clearly stated that the initial order for the 20, was intented to cover the coastal defence. In a list of the available aa guns in greek arsenal, these 20 37mm navy flaks are also included. Regarding the other 30, I found that they were ordered on September 1937 and it is clearly stated that they were to equip the new destroyers. Initially the Navy requested 20 for the 4 destroyers ordered in UK but this plan was cancelled and a new order for 30 units was placed.
For the 20mm flaks, the Army received 52 in total (50+2) of light chassie from Rheinmetall and 56 (26+1+29) of heavy chassie from Berlin Suhler Waffen und Fahrzengwerke.
This last detail (the Berlin Suhler Waffen und Fahrzengwerke company) makes me wondering if they were flak 30s, like the 52 bought from Rheinmetall, or of a different type.
Another order for 72 more 20mm flaks of light chassie was nevel fullfiled.
Idomeneas
Re: Greek Artillery 1941
Hey Idomeneas, Its good to hear from you.
I'm still working on a few things with Greek AA and other Greek naval guns that i think you may be interested in. I will make a more detailed post in a few days. I've been working on it for a while, and it's taken alot longer than what i thought it would.
I surfed the internet on BSW 20mm Flak, and discovered they were made in two models, pre-WW2. The model 1930 and the model 1938. The basic differences between the two were:
1. The Flak38 was lighter in weight
2. The Flak38 had a higher rate of fire (about 83% increase)
3. The Flak38 had a different sighting system
4. The effective range of both Flak30 and Flak38 were the same (2,200m)
Going by the information you gave in your last post, it's easy for me to think that they are model 1930 (given the information above0. They probably are. What i don't know is; when (calendar date) were the first Flak38, ready to be supplied to BSW customers. BSW (like any company) would have been fullfilling pre-contracted orders, some of which could have dated back a year or more (for example). Therefore if Greece placed their order for 56 x 20mm BSW AA guns (heavy chassis) in September 1937, they may well have been ordering the Flak38 instead of the Flak30. I don't know what German politics of the day, had say about this issue, but i am of the mind that 56 of the latest 20mm AA guns (could have been negotiated for), and would not have made the biggest difference in German foreign policy, especially to a country like Greece, who after all, during that time had good trade relations with them. Anyway, check out this link, it has the technical data for the BSW 20mm Flak30 and 38 (with a few pics)
http://www.jaegerplatoon.net/AA_GUNS1.htm
Take care,
Stavros.
I'm still working on a few things with Greek AA and other Greek naval guns that i think you may be interested in. I will make a more detailed post in a few days. I've been working on it for a while, and it's taken alot longer than what i thought it would.
I surfed the internet on BSW 20mm Flak, and discovered they were made in two models, pre-WW2. The model 1930 and the model 1938. The basic differences between the two were:
1. The Flak38 was lighter in weight
2. The Flak38 had a higher rate of fire (about 83% increase)
3. The Flak38 had a different sighting system
4. The effective range of both Flak30 and Flak38 were the same (2,200m)
Going by the information you gave in your last post, it's easy for me to think that they are model 1930 (given the information above0. They probably are. What i don't know is; when (calendar date) were the first Flak38, ready to be supplied to BSW customers. BSW (like any company) would have been fullfilling pre-contracted orders, some of which could have dated back a year or more (for example). Therefore if Greece placed their order for 56 x 20mm BSW AA guns (heavy chassis) in September 1937, they may well have been ordering the Flak38 instead of the Flak30. I don't know what German politics of the day, had say about this issue, but i am of the mind that 56 of the latest 20mm AA guns (could have been negotiated for), and would not have made the biggest difference in German foreign policy, especially to a country like Greece, who after all, during that time had good trade relations with them. Anyway, check out this link, it has the technical data for the BSW 20mm Flak30 and 38 (with a few pics)
http://www.jaegerplatoon.net/AA_GUNS1.htm
Take care,
Stavros.
Re: Greek Artillery 1941
Hi Idomeneas,
Just an update on my last post. The 20mm Flak.38 started being produced sometime in 1939 (from what I have read so far over the internet - others say 1940), and i think, like the Rheinmetall built 20mm Flak.38, it came into service (in Germany) during 1940 or by late 1940. For this reason, Im not so sure the 56 x 20mm Flak built by BSW for Greece were model 1938 and I am leaning towards the model 1930. Finland received a number of the BSW 20mm Flak38 from Germany during the Continuation War (sometime after 25June41) as stated on the jagerplatoon website (refer to link in previous post). So, in my opinion, it is highly likely that BSW were ready to export these guns from late 1940 onwards and not 1939, after the German Army had been fitted out with a number of these guns first. What do you think?
Maybe we should pose the question to other forum members as to when exactly the German Army started receiving these guns, as this will help in excluding any misconceptions (because I don't know enough).
References: Google book search (book review): The Encyclopedia of Weapons of WWII (by Av Chris Bishop)
Note: scroll to page 166 (Section:- Light Anti-Aircraft Guns), It is a short article - 1 page only.
http://books.google.no/books?id=JZ9cSQN ... et&f=false
Regards,
Stavros.
Just an update on my last post. The 20mm Flak.38 started being produced sometime in 1939 (from what I have read so far over the internet - others say 1940), and i think, like the Rheinmetall built 20mm Flak.38, it came into service (in Germany) during 1940 or by late 1940. For this reason, Im not so sure the 56 x 20mm Flak built by BSW for Greece were model 1938 and I am leaning towards the model 1930. Finland received a number of the BSW 20mm Flak38 from Germany during the Continuation War (sometime after 25June41) as stated on the jagerplatoon website (refer to link in previous post). So, in my opinion, it is highly likely that BSW were ready to export these guns from late 1940 onwards and not 1939, after the German Army had been fitted out with a number of these guns first. What do you think?
Maybe we should pose the question to other forum members as to when exactly the German Army started receiving these guns, as this will help in excluding any misconceptions (because I don't know enough).
References: Google book search (book review): The Encyclopedia of Weapons of WWII (by Av Chris Bishop)
Note: scroll to page 166 (Section:- Light Anti-Aircraft Guns), It is a short article - 1 page only.
http://books.google.no/books?id=JZ9cSQN ... et&f=false
Regards,
Stavros.
Re: Greek Artillery 1941
Hi Stoly01,
I am waiting for your updated post after the research you are conducting.
In order to make the things more complicated, a friend of mine, discovered a manual in a Hellenic Navy's storehouse, for the 20mm ST-5 Solothurn flak (from which the Flak.30 derived).
This does not imply that the Hellenic Navy used that specific type of flak, but I believe it is a very interesting detail.
Idomeneas
I am waiting for your updated post after the research you are conducting.
In order to make the things more complicated, a friend of mine, discovered a manual in a Hellenic Navy's storehouse, for the 20mm ST-5 Solothurn flak (from which the Flak.30 derived).
This does not imply that the Hellenic Navy used that specific type of flak, but I believe it is a very interesting detail.
Idomeneas
Re: Greek Artillery 1941
This website http://xoomer.virgilio.it/ramius/Milita ... e_2gm.html lists a certain 20/ ? TS M 101 AA 20mm gun captured in unknown numbers from Greek Army/Navy/AF.
Re: Greek Artillery 1941
Hey Dili,
I personally don't know any type of a/a gun of the TS M101 20mm model.
The same for 37/20 M 16 cann. da pos. Putezux. What is this Putezux?
For the number of 155/14 C M 17 Schneider Howitzer, I think there is an error, since the Hellenic Army had only bought 60, back in 1920s.
Idomeneas
I personally don't know any type of a/a gun of the TS M101 20mm model.
The same for 37/20 M 16 cann. da pos. Putezux. What is this Putezux?
For the number of 155/14 C M 17 Schneider Howitzer, I think there is an error, since the Hellenic Army had only bought 60, back in 1920s.
Idomeneas
Re: Greek Artillery 1941
-Putezux probably means Puteaux.
-Maybe a mix of numbers between France and Greece?
-Maybe a mix of numbers between France and Greece?
Re: Greek Artillery 1941
I have found this another reference to the TS 101 20mm gun, now came from Italian Defense Ministry itself with reference :
http://www.esercito.difesa.it/Storia/Uf ... ondoL2.pdf
page:62
http://www.esercito.difesa.it/Storia/Uf ... ondoL2.pdf
page:62
So if someone want to go to the vaultsFascicolo 790 Ministero della Guerra. Com. mitragliere da 20 mm mod. T.S. 101 Greco 1942.
Re: Greek Artillery 1941
I searched briefly the internet and found this:Idomeneas wrote:
For the 20mm flaks, the Army received 52 in total (50+2) of light chassie from Rheinmetall and 56 (26+1+29) of heavy chassie from Berlin Suhler Waffen und Fahrzengwerke.
This last detail (the Berlin Suhler Waffen und Fahrzengwerke company) makes me wondering if they were flak 30s, like the 52 bought from Rheinmetall, or of a different type.
Another order for 72 more 20mm flaks of light chassie was nevel fullfiled.
Idomeneas
Berlin-Suhler-Waffen und Fahrzeugwerke was an originally jewish owned company which had many names in its life. This is its wiki article http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Simson_%28company%29. After 1939 it was known as "Gustloff-Werke – Waffenwerk Suhl"
According to the German-language wikipedia articles (http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/2-cm-Flak_30 and http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/2-cm-Flak_38), both the Flak 30 and 38 were licenced produced by the Gustloff Werke.
So that answers Idomeneas' question. I don't know if he'll read it, he hasn't signed in since August
Dili,
according to the official Greek volume on supplies and armaments, the only Greek 20mm AA in existence during the war were the German Flaks which Idomeneas speaks about. Also 8 captured Breda 20mm, of which however only a smaller number was servicable as there were not many parts.
Re: Greek Artillery 1941
T.S. could be Tipo + something started with S. Tipo Solothurn for example.
Re: Greek Artillery 1941
What type of Daimler Truck did the Germans actually sell Greece, I have seen a total of 177 posted in this thread, so I imagine that this total is correct, but what make and model.
Yan.
Yan.
Re: Greek Artillery 1941
Hey YAN,
According to some sources Greece purchased the following german trucks:
Army
24 Daimler-Benz LG4000/LG68 6x6 7½t. 100hp
108 Daimler-Benz LG2500-LG65/3 6x6 3,1/4 t. 85hp
Air Force
19 Mercedes-Benz LG3000/LG63 6x4 3t. 95hp
Navy
2 Daimler-Benz LG4000/LG68 6x6 7½t. 100hp
Idomeneas
According to some sources Greece purchased the following german trucks:
Army
24 Daimler-Benz LG4000/LG68 6x6 7½t. 100hp
108 Daimler-Benz LG2500-LG65/3 6x6 3,1/4 t. 85hp
Air Force
19 Mercedes-Benz LG3000/LG63 6x4 3t. 95hp
Navy
2 Daimler-Benz LG4000/LG68 6x6 7½t. 100hp
Idomeneas
Re: Greek Artillery 1941
Top stuff Idomeneas, thank you.
Yan.
Yan.