Axis History Forum

by **daveh** on 08 May 2012 14:03

Below are given links to the sections of
Organisation de l'armée belge 1939 - 1940 "sur pied de guerre"
This was

basically the handbook of the ministry of defence detailing the (realistic) planned organisation of the belgium army. The emphasis is on planned as between 1939 and may 1940 some minor adjustments were made

by **Leo Niehorster** on 16 May 2012 08:36

Great links!!! :milsmile:

Many thanks.
Leo
(Now if only a similar source for the internal organization — including at least major weapons — could be found...)

by **narwan** on 20 May 2012 15:26

There's one question in particular I have right now, it's about the divisional and regimental towed antittank companies; the to&e lists these to have 12x 47mm guns yet I often see 8x 47mm guns per company mentioned (as on mr Niehorsters site for example). Is this a discrepancy between the planned (12 guns per company) and the realised (8 guns per company) organisation per 10-5-1940 due to a shortage of AT guns? Or was 12 guns the actual number in the companies per 10-5-1940?

Narwan

by **daveh** on 20 May 2012 20:08

Where numbers are given e.g. in

Organisation de l'armée belge 1939 - 1940 "sur pied de guerre"

Eric Simon’s Regiment d’Infantrie

http://www.chasseurs-a-pied-belges.be/

FabriBeckers, E., 1978, La campagne de l'Armee Belge 1940

all give 12 AT guns per AT company.

I have not come across any comment regarding a shortage of AT guns in Active/1st reserve Infantry Divisions

I wonder if the 8 guns per company comes from a German Intelligence report on Belgian Divisional organisation.

by **narwan** on 21 May 2012 22:02

Could be from german sources. Or perhaps from the AT companies in the cavalerie porté and cyclist regiments; those are listed in the "sur pied de guerre" as having 8 guns per company. The second ChA division was also supposed to have an 8 gun company per regiment. Perhaps that led to the assumption that all belgian AT companies had 8 guns?

Btw, you mentioned not having come across comments about a shortage of AT guns in the active and 1st reserve divisions but the second ChA had only half the alloted amount. So there wasn't a surplus of guns. Do you know of other formations that were short on guns?

by **daveh** on 24 May 2012 15:35

http://www.militarymodelling.com/news/a ... asp?a=3476 gives the production of the 47mm AT gun as amounting to over 1,000 guns by the time of the 1940 campaign. It was produced in 4 variants and I have tried to match the numbers of these 4 variants from various sources to the production figure to see if there was a shortage of 47mm guns.

1) A fixed mounting for fortifications : c. 60 guns in forts and bunkers.

I am uncertain as to how accurate this figure is as
a) I have had to assume that all bunkers referred to as AT bunkers were equipped with 47 mm guns
b) I do not have a definitive number for the total of AT bunkers

2) A fixed mount on the Carden-Loyd Mark VI
there were 6 such vehicles

3) A turret mount in the T 13
35 T13 BI
21 T13 BII
194 T13 BIII: the first order of T13 BIII

A second order for 158 T13 BIII was placed in Sept. 1939 and production continued into May 1940 Though it is unclear how many of the second order were completed. The highest number on a T13 BIII I have seen is 3544 which may indicate another 50 or so were made in the 8 months from Sept. 1939 to May 1940

4) the wheeled carriage for the AT gun
based on the information in Organisation de l'armée belge 1939 - 1940 "sur pied de guerre" there were some 660 AT guns were in various army AT units

Giving a total figure of:
60 + 6 + 250 + 50? + 660 = 1026

There may also be a few guns with training units

This yields an overall figure in line with the suggested production figure. This would suggest no overall shortage of guns in respect of the planned TOE for Belgian AT units.

narwan mentions

the second ChA had only half the alloted amount.

as regards AT guns.
As I mentioned previously I have not seen any mention of shortages of AT guns. Where does your information come from? Could the "missing" guns have been attached to another unit or on loan to a training establishment?

by **narwan** on 24 May 2012 17:36

daveh wrote:narwan mentions
the second ChA had only half the alloted amount.
as regards AT guns.
As I mentioned previously I have not seen any mention of shortages of AT guns. Where does your information come from? Could the "missing" guns have been attached to another unit or on loan to a training establishment?

"Pied de Terre" calls for two separate heavy companies in the regiments of the second division of the ChA, one with 8x M76 guns and one with 8x 47mm AT guns.

This source lists only a single "Tuigen" company, not two separate ones:

http://18daagseveldtocht.wikispaces.com ... nse+Jagers
http://18daagseveldtocht.wikispaces.com ... nse+Jagers
http://18daagseveldtocht.wikispaces.com ... nse+Jagers

The number of guns isn't clealry specified except in the case of the 5th regiment where the text mentions:
"5ChA bezit geen anti-tankkanonnen, maar heeft toch nog drie C47 kunnen bekomen van de divisietroepen."
Which translates as: "5ChA (regiment) does not have AT guns, but has managed to get 3 C47's from divisional troops."
A bit further it mentions specific deployments of companies and states that the only 3 AT guns were spread out to cover 3 bridges.

This source also lists just 4x guns of each type:

http://niehorster.orbat.com/021_belgium ... rd_02.html

Could it be that the 2nd ChA was still forming and the support companies not yet fully operational and hence just a platoon each instead of 2 on the 10th of may? Then it wouldn't be a case of a shortage of AT guns but a matter of turning available guns into operational units.

Narwan

by **daveh** on 26 May 2012 10:48

The 4th, 5th and 6th Chasseur Ardennais Regiments were mobilised on August 28th 1939 in phase B of the Belgian mobilization plan. This suggests that there should have been plenty of time for the 2nd Chasseur Ardennais Division to have been fully mobilised and fully equipped by May 10 1940.
May 10 1940 the second and third battalions of the 4th, 5th and 6th Chasseur Ardennais Regiments were placed NE of Namur on the Meuse. The first battalions of these regiments were in reserve in Namur or to the S between Namur and Dinant.

2nd ChA Div.png

Could any elements of the 2nd Chasseur Ardennais Division have been loaned to other units e.g. in Groupement K?

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