Netherlands and Belgium joining Allies

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asureka
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Netherlands and Belgium joining Allies

#1

Post by asureka » 18 Feb 2014, 14:15

Can anybody explain me when exactly Belgium And Netherlans joined the Allies? After what event? If possible to the detailed event etc. Because now I can see just dates that 1940 May 10 (German invasion) but that does not say much. Just like that? Shots fired and allies instantly? No situacion, nothing? Even in that date some text lines confuses me (for example, text from Wikipedia, not the best source, but there I found more detailed information than anywhere else) : "The government in 1940 fled to London, where it had command of some colonies as well as the Dutch navy and merchant marine. When they arrived in London the Government in exile considered itself still neutral but found its desire for the liberation of the Netherlands coinciding with the war aims of the Allies." .

So how it was in reality? Maybe link with detailed useful information?

Thank you

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LWD
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Re: Netherlands and Belgium joining Allies

#2

Post by LWD » 18 Feb 2014, 15:37

It may well hinge on just how you define "alllies". For instance the British, Dutch, and US had extensive discussions and plans on how to react to Japanese advances in Asia before the US entered the war. Does this make them allies prior to the US entry or not? Certainly once the Germans attacked they were allies in the sense of fighting a common foe. As for the Dutch still considering themselves "neutral" by doing so they made themselves elegible for some foreign trade and such that they might not have been as combatants. I'm afraid your simple question doesn't have a simple answer.


asureka
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Re: Netherlands and Belgium joining Allies

#3

Post by asureka » 18 Feb 2014, 16:29

If possible, I would like to see detailed and explaining answer.

steverodgers801
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Re: Netherlands and Belgium joining Allies

#4

Post by steverodgers801 » 18 Feb 2014, 17:39

The king of Belgium refused to allow any discussions between his army and the French/British command. He had half of his army on the French border and made it clear his orders were to resist either side if they entered Belgium territory with out being asked to. Since the Belgium king stayed in Belgium Im not sure you could say they were really allies, co-combatants for a time yes but there never was a cooperation that as with the other occupied countries. The Dutch honestly thought they could stay out of the war again and so never worked out an agreement either, but once Holland fell the Queen left for Britain and became an official ally.

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LWD
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Re: Netherlands and Belgium joining Allies

#5

Post by LWD » 19 Feb 2014, 15:07

Wasn't there defacto cooperation at least at the unit level for a while between the forces of Belgium and the French and British? In particular I seem to recall something in relation to the Dunkirk pocket.

ljadw
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Re: Netherlands and Belgium joining Allies

#6

Post by ljadw » 19 Feb 2014, 20:47

For Belgium,the situation was more complicated :

1) The Belgian government publicly condemned the decision of the King to capitulate (28 may),took over the powers of the King (who became a POW) and said that the war was going on

2) On 22 june 1940 (end of the fighting in the West),the Belgian government suddenly became silent,refused to go to Britain (the only minister who went to Britain,Jaspar,was fired) and started negociations with the King and the Germans to return to Belgium and to collaborate: this had no success.

3) Only in october/november(? ,my memory) did the Belgian government arrive in Britain,via Spain,when it was obvious that Germany had not won the war,and,of course,they concealed their willingness to return to oocupied Belgium to collaborate with the Germans . :P

JBbelgium
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Re: Netherlands and Belgium joining Allies

#7

Post by JBbelgium » 31 Jul 2014, 12:25

The UK and France declared war on Germany after the invasion of Poland in 1939. If Belgium allied itself with Germany than that would be a declaration of war against Germany. Instead Belgium chose for armed independence. Belgium was neutral, but would defend itself against all attackers. Belgium would not allow foreign troops on their soil and neither would they let a party attack a third party through their territory. So basically this favoured the allies. If the UK and France attacked Germany than they would not help. If Germany attacked than they would side with the Allies. Plans were made to allow Britsh and French troops in Belgium when Germany attacked (the Dyle KW line). This was not the case with the German army. 80% or 90% of the Belgian army faced the Germans. The rest were in reserve "facing the French".

In the case of Belgium it was a very one-sided neutrality.

pugsville
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Re: Netherlands and Belgium joining Allies

#8

Post by pugsville » 31 Jul 2014, 14:11

If Belguim had allowed the Allies in before the German attack, it may well have had a large effect on the war. Demolitions scheduled but not carried out in time in may 1940 would have made the scickle cut infeasible in the Ardennes. THE Allied forces may not have been caught on the hop.

JBbelgium
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Re: Netherlands and Belgium joining Allies

#9

Post by JBbelgium » 31 Jul 2014, 18:58

I have heard that statement before by mostlly British or American forum members. But consider this.

1) UK and FR units were only going to advance to the Dyle KW line. Which meant surrendering half of the Belgian territory to the Germans without a fight. The only effect would be moving the Phoney War a few miles north and Hitler would have seen this as a declaration of war.
If the Germans simply occupied the eastern half and instead of attacking negotiated a peace treaty then half of the country would have been lost for nothing. I could see the UK and FR doing this if the Phoney War lasted long enough.

2) The Allies never managed to concentrate reserves to launch a counterattack. A timely counterattack could have stopped the sickle cut. I always have found the Breda move to be a mistake. 1 DLM and some motorised infantry divisions were taken from reserve and waisted on this effort. Having the 1st British armoured division already in France would have been nice. The three French DCR's were located south of the Ardennes.

One DLM + British 1st Armoured + 3 DCR's + some motorised infantry divisions would have been a substantial force. The French also held about 8 infantry divisions in reserve. The allies had dispersed these units and the Germans could beat them one at the time.

3) The French in the Ardennes only had to advance a few kilometers. The Germans didn't break through the French because they weren't in place yet. They broke through because they threw the weight of 7 Panzer Divisions against a much smaller force. Such a force would have been succesfull anyway. It's just the Allied counterattack that failed to materialise

steverodgers801
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Re: Netherlands and Belgium joining Allies

#10

Post by steverodgers801 » 01 Aug 2014, 05:22

The French did counter attack at Sedan, it was just piecemeal, they didn't concentrate a force large enough to do damage. The French did anticipate a force through the Ardennes, it was simply French and also German doctrine that a tank force would wait for the infantry before crossing. If the Germans had waited as expected the French would have had forces in place to deal with the attack.

JBbelgium
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Re: Netherlands and Belgium joining Allies

#11

Post by JBbelgium » 01 Aug 2014, 10:09

I know about the smaller local counterattacks. But I meant a larger effort against the strategic German offensive through the Ardennes. Something like Von Mansteins counterattack in early 1943 against the Russian forces who had broken through after the encirclement of Stalingrad, known as the 3rd battle of Kharkov.

pugsville
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Re: Netherlands and Belgium joining Allies

#12

Post by pugsville » 05 Aug 2014, 07:35

but if the Allied had occupied the Ardennes first, demolitions of a number of key bridges would have made the rapid movement of large numbers of troops much more difficult. Yes the Allied troops in the Ardennes would still have faced a massive panzer army and would have given way , but the speed of the German penetration would have been slowed.

JBbelgium
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Re: Netherlands and Belgium joining Allies

#13

Post by JBbelgium » 09 Aug 2014, 19:24

What key bridges? The Germans captured 2 intact bridges at Veldwezelt and Vroenhoven but that's up noth near Eben Emael not in the Ardennes. It only helped the diversion attack by the 3rd and 4th panzer. I think some motorcycle troops managed to cross in the Ardennes using a sluice, lock. Other than that all Panzer divisions used self-made pontoon bridge AFAIK. Well it will always remain a what if scenario.

Knouterer
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Re: Netherlands and Belgium joining Allies

#14

Post by Knouterer » 03 Mar 2015, 13:44

asureka wrote:Can anybody explain me when exactly Belgium And Netherlans joined the Allies? After what event? If possible to the detailed event etc. Because now I can see just dates that 1940 May 10 (German invasion) but that does not say much. Just like that? Shots fired and allies instantly? No situacion, nothing? Even in that date some text lines confuses me (for example, text from Wikipedia, not the best source, but there I found more detailed information than anywhere else) : "The government in 1940 fled to London, where it had command of some colonies as well as the Dutch navy and merchant marine. When they arrived in London the Government in exile considered itself still neutral but found its desire for the liberation of the Netherlands coinciding with the war aims of the Allies." .

So how it was in reality? Maybe link with detailed useful information?

Thank you
Sorry, but that just doesn't make any sense. On the morning of the 10th of May, after the shooting had already started, the German ambassador (practically in tears) handed a declaration to the Dutch Minister of Foreign Affairs, Van Kleffens, which called on the Netherlands to surrender and accept German "protection". Van Kleffens rejected this and declared, in the name of the government, that clearly a state of war existed between Germany and the Netherlands.

So from that point on, there could be no question of "neutrality". You can't be at war and neutral at the same time.
"The true spirit of conversation consists in building on another man's observation, not overturning it." Edward George Bulwer-Lytton

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