Allied officers carrying long-guns?

Discussions on the Allies and the Neutral States in general and the countries that does not have sections of their own.
Post Reply
User avatar
Hama
Member
Posts: 278
Joined: 21 Jul 2016, 22:48
Location: the coast

Allied officers carrying long-guns?

#1

Post by Hama » 18 Aug 2016, 16:19

I remember watching a war film years back where a US officer (Lieutenant I think) was using a Thompson SMG. This got me wondering was it really common practice during the WW2 era for US, British, Dutch, or other Allied infantry officers to carry long-guns like rifles or submachineguns?

I know in the Japanese and Manchukuo militaries this would have been a bit unusual for an officer. NCO's would have a rifle or machinegun, but commissioned officers would often only have a sword and a pistol. Some officers might carry an smg like the Type 100, but it wasn't a standard thing in all units. Was carrying a rifle or smg something common for Allied officers in the field? Was it only for junior officers, or did it extend up the chain of command to anyone serving in a field position?

User avatar
Sheldrake
Member
Posts: 3726
Joined: 28 Apr 2013, 18:14
Location: London
Contact:

Re: Allied officers carrying long-guns?

#2

Post by Sheldrake » 18 Aug 2016, 17:23

In British service it was common practice for infantry and artillery officers below the rank of captain to carry rifles or sub machine guns. Running around waving a sword or pistol was a guaranteed way to draw fire.

In this photograph taken after the battle of Mogaung. Brigadier Calvdert, Lt Col Shaw and Major Lumley demonstrate how to get that perfect "ally" look the prefect accessories are a with a SMLE with sword bayonet and a non issue American carbine.
Image


User avatar
Hama
Member
Posts: 278
Joined: 21 Jul 2016, 22:48
Location: the coast

Re: Allied officers carrying long-guns?

#3

Post by Hama » 18 Aug 2016, 17:30

Interesting photo. They definitely wouldn't present easily identifiable targets as officers looking like that.

But, so aside from these instances like above, you say it was mostly only British officers below Captain who carried long-guns? So Captains or higher would just have a pistol yes? Did they also carry swords in the field? I read something about them doing it in WW1 but I'm not sure whether that lasted to WW2.

User avatar
Sheldrake
Member
Posts: 3726
Joined: 28 Apr 2013, 18:14
Location: London
Contact:

Re: Allied officers carrying long-guns?

#4

Post by Sheldrake » 18 Aug 2016, 17:56

Hama wrote:Interesting photo. They definitely wouldn't present easily identifiable targets as officers looking like that.

But, so aside from these instances like above, you say it was mostly only British officers below Captain who carried long-guns? So Captains or higher would just have a pistol yes? Did they also carry swords in the field? I thought I read something about them doing it in WW1 but I'm not sure, or whether that lasted to WW2.
From the middle of the first world war - and I suspect even the Boer war, infantry platoon and company commanders carried normal infantry small arms to make it harder for the enemy to spot commanders. Around this time officer's rank badges moved to the shoulder from the cuff. This wasn't without resistance and there were some regiments which considered it poor form to hide from the enemy. Ebven in 1940 a Guard company commander wore his service dress rather than battle dress on the basis that he would rather be shot than mistaken for a chauffeur.

The odd battalion commander might carry a rifle or SMG to taste and style. More so warry units like the paras, commandos and chindits. (Jack Churchill preferred a longbow) I think H Jones was carrying an SMG when he was killed in the Falklands.

By and large if your job is mainly in a command post or a tank a long arm is a damned nuisance and you look an utter poser sporting one.

Swords went out of used PDQ in WW1. Montgomery told a story of meeting a German in 1914 while he was holding his sword. He claims to have then remembered that he had been taught to draw, carry and sheath a sword; salute with it at the halt and in slow and quick time, but never been taught how to use it in a fight. So he kicked his opponent as hard as he could in the groin.

User avatar
Hama
Member
Posts: 278
Joined: 21 Jul 2016, 22:48
Location: the coast

Re: Allied officers carrying long-guns?

#5

Post by Hama » 18 Aug 2016, 18:27

Thanks for that info. I agree about long-guns being needless for upper ranks, I was just curious when I learned about the junior officers carrying them, which seemed in contrast to the usual equipment of Japanese or Manchurian officers.

Interesting story about Montgomery. Really shows how ill-prepared many armies were at the time for WW1, what with so much training devoted to looking nice on parade or using horses against MGs! Sad story for sure.

On a slightly different note as long as we're discussing British equipment, did the British military ever adopt a combat shotgun in WW2? I've always wondered why the Americans seem to have been one of the few militaries to widely issue a military shotgun. I'd think, what with the claustrophobic conditions of some jungle battlefields, a shotgun could be more useful at short notice than your standard bolt-action rifle.

User avatar
Keystone
Member
Posts: 67
Joined: 11 Dec 2006, 15:42
Location: Pennsylvania

Re: Allied officers carrying long-guns?

#6

Post by Keystone » 18 Aug 2016, 18:52

Lieutenant General James M. Gavin "Jumpin' Jim" of the U.S. 82nd Airborne Division was noted for carrying the M-1 Garand.
Last edited by Keystone on 19 Aug 2016, 14:02, edited 1 time in total.

User avatar
Hama
Member
Posts: 278
Joined: 21 Jul 2016, 22:48
Location: the coast

Re: Allied officers carrying long-guns?

#7

Post by Hama » 18 Aug 2016, 18:59

Interesting, I imagine being a para he probably had more occasions to need one than your average General. Was it common for officers of his rank to make jumps in to combat? Brigadier General sounds a bit high up the ladder to be participating in front line fighting.

LineDoggie
Member
Posts: 1275
Joined: 03 Oct 2008, 21:06

Re: Allied officers carrying long-guns?

#8

Post by LineDoggie » 19 Aug 2016, 11:53

Keystone wrote:Brigadier General James M. Gavin "Jumpin' Jim" of the U.S. 82nd Airborne Division was noted for carrying the M-1 Garand.
Matthew Ridgway carried a M1903 loaded with M2 AP ammo.

Robert Eichelburger was photographed with a M1928A1 Thompson at Buna New Guinea
"There are two kinds of people who are staying on this beach: those who are dead and those who are going to die. Now let’s get the hell out of here".
Col. George Taylor, 16th Infantry Regiment, Omaha Beach

User avatar
Keystone
Member
Posts: 67
Joined: 11 Dec 2006, 15:42
Location: Pennsylvania

Re: Allied officers carrying long-guns?

#9

Post by Keystone » 19 Aug 2016, 14:03

Correction - LIEUTENANT General James M. Gavin.

LineDoggie
Member
Posts: 1275
Joined: 03 Oct 2008, 21:06

Re: Allied officers carrying long-guns?

#10

Post by LineDoggie » 20 Aug 2016, 03:18

Keystone wrote:Correction - LIEUTENANT General James M. Gavin.
Not until 1948...
"There are two kinds of people who are staying on this beach: those who are dead and those who are going to die. Now let’s get the hell out of here".
Col. George Taylor, 16th Infantry Regiment, Omaha Beach

Carl Schwamberger
Host - Allied sections
Posts: 10055
Joined: 02 Sep 2006, 21:31
Location: USA

Re: Allied officers carrying long-guns?

#11

Post by Carl Schwamberger » 05 Oct 2016, 04:15

Keystone wrote:
Brigadier General James M. Gavin "Jumpin' Jim" of the U.S. 82nd Airborne Division was noted for carrying the M-1 Garand.
LineDoggie wrote:
Keystone wrote:Brigadier General James M. Gavin "Jumpin' Jim" of the U.S. 82nd Airborne Division was noted for carrying the M-1 Garand.
Matthew Ridgway carried a M1903 loaded with M2 AP ammo.

Robert Eichelburger was photographed with a M1928A1 Thompson at Buna New Guinea
Ridgeway in his autobiography describes firing his AP rifle ammo at a German AFV of unidentifed model during the Bulge battle late Dec 1944. He was inspecting forward company positions when a German attack commenced, and stumbled across the thing while moving from one company position to another. After emptying his magazine he decided it made more sense to return whence he came and then stumbled across a bazooka team who were befuddled to find a General giving them orders.

Stovepipe
Member
Posts: 85
Joined: 27 Sep 2016, 17:51
Location: near Dublin.

Re: Allied officers carrying long-guns?

#12

Post by Stovepipe » 22 Oct 2016, 22:45

It would have been common for any officer engaged in close combat to carry a rifle or submachine gun, especially if he expected to get up close and personal with the enemy. I recall one British Officer's comment about carrying a revolver. He said that the only person he ever shot with it was himself, because, in very close combat, whilst using a rifle, he was wounded by gunfire and the rifle shot out of his hands. Not quite realising how badly wounded he was, he pulled his revolver out of it's holster, intending to shoot the man who had just shot him. He was too weak to lift the barrel and pulled the trigger and shot himself in the foot, which ironically saved his life, as he fell to the ground and the enemy moved on. He was picked up later and made a PoW and was treated by his enemies for his wounds and survived the war......a german sniper was captured in 1944 and was asked who he prioritised as targets; "anyone with a handgun or a moustache" as only officers and NCOs tended to be allowed to have either".

Carl Schwamberger
Host - Allied sections
Posts: 10055
Joined: 02 Sep 2006, 21:31
Location: USA

Re: Allied officers carrying long-guns?

#13

Post by Carl Schwamberger » 01 Nov 2016, 02:49

Back in my FO daysI used Anthony Quinn in the Guns of Navarrone as a example for myself and team members to blend in with the rifle company.

Carl Schwamberger
Host - Allied sections
Posts: 10055
Joined: 02 Sep 2006, 21:31
Location: USA

Re: Allied officers carrying long-guns?

#14

Post by Carl Schwamberger » 01 Nov 2016, 02:52

Back in my FO daysI used Anthony Quinn in the Guns of Navarrone as a example for myself and team members to blend in with the rifle company.

In the 1980s the marine Corps made the standard M16 the TO/TE weapon of the rifle platoon commander & the senior platoon NCOS.

Post Reply

Return to “The Allies and the Neutral States in general”