*Experimental SELF-PROPELLED GUNS of the Allies - help!*

Discussions on WW2 covering more than one theatre of the war.
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AMVAS
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Postby AMVAS » 23 Dec 2005 09:39

BIGpanzer wrote:Just now found a small mention that Soviets used several SU-5-2 with 122mm howitzer, based on light tank T-26 chassis, in 1941 in Ukraine. Soviet Army officially had ~15 different SU-5 in June 1941, two SU-5-2 were successfully tested in the 7th mechanized corps in 1936. Also Soviet 2nd mechanized brigade, participated in the conflict with Japan (lake Khasan, 1938), had 13 SU-5-2 - http://khasan-district.narod.ru/history ... su_5_2.jpg (military parade, Khabarovsk)
One Internet source mentioned 28 SU-5 in June 1941 (17 of them in Western military districts), but me seems this is mistake, probably, as near 15 SU-5 were produced.
http://rkkaww2.armchairgeneral.com/gall ... _5_2_4.jpg



http://www.rkkaww2.armchairgeneral.com/ ... 0.STriplex

So, probability exists that ~30 SU-5 were built
See also
http://www.rkkaww2.armchairgeneral.com/ ... e01_41.htm
where the number of AFVs is given by June '41

Regards,
Alex

P.S. I'm prepairing soome updates in my galleries. Some of them can be interesting for you....Especially if I manage to perform everything I want to place there ;)

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Postby BIGpanzer » 25 Dec 2005 00:00

Hello, AMVAS!
Glad to hear you!

As for the amount of SU-5 SPG - different data exist (from 15 to 30). According to the A.G. Soliankin, M.V. Pavlov, I.V. Pavlov, I.G. Zheltov "Native armoured fighting vehicles" Vol. 1 (1905-1941), Moscow, Exprint, 2002 (I bought via Internet this newest Russian book with the most detailed description of Russian/Soviet AFVs I`ve ever seen) - only 15 SU-5 were produced (six SU-5-1 with 76.2mm gun in 1934, six SU-5-2 with 122mm howitzer in 1937 and three SU-5-3 with 152.4mm mortar in 1934).

I also found a mention that toward 1941 all SU-5s of the Red Army were rearmed with 122mm howitzer only.

According to your very interesting site Soviets had in June 1941 the following number of SU-5: 11 in Far Eastern military district, 6 in Leningrad military district, 3 in Kiev military district and 8 in Western military district - total 28.
May be this is correct data, but I still think that only 15 SU-5 were produced. I believe that sources giving the amount of 28-30 SU-5 also count another SPG, based on light tank T-26 chassis (10 copies of "artillery tank" AT-1 and 5 copies of anti-aircraft SPG SU-6).

As for SU-6 (see my posts from 13 and 19 March here, with the photo links) - it was one of the first track AA SPG in the world (1935-1936), but new powerful 76.2mm AA gun 3K mod. 1931 had quite strong blow-back (6.23 kg shells, 820 m/s), so T-26 chassis of SU-6 was equipped with 4 extensible outriggers. Anti-aircraft SPG SU-6 could fire with high accuracy only from the stationary positions (fire accuracy with the speed even 10 km/h was low, SPG jumped up and swinged during the fire), so its planned role as AA SPG of the cavalry and mechanized units was rejected. Also 90 hp engine of T-26 was underpowered for SU-6 (weight 11.3 t instead of 8.4 t of T-26) and suspension overweighted despite the additional road wheel. Ammunition of SU-6 - 48 shells, also SPG had 2x7.62mm MG (in front and behind). SU-6 was also tested with 37mm AA gun. It was planned to produce 14 SU-6 in 1936 - 10 with 37mm automatic AA gun, 4 with 76.2mm AA gun 3K. By January 1937 only 5 were built by plant No. 185 because of unsatisfactory results of the ground test.

So Soviet engineers developed and built in 1935 new experimental AA SPG with the same 76.2 mm AA gun 3K, but based on medium tank T-28 chassis (weight 19-21 t, ammunition - 108 shells, crew - 6 men, 400 hp engine, speed 38 km/h). New AA SPG was also equipped with outriggers, but it was possible to fire even without them on the move. Both experimental AA SPGs had all-around traverse of the AA gun and four tiltable armored shields around the fighting compartment.
Some sources mention that five experimental SU-6, based on T-26 chassis, served in the Red Army in 1930s.
Last edited by BIGpanzer on 25 Dec 2005 18:44, edited 2 times in total.

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Postby AMVAS » 25 Dec 2005 06:51

BIGpanzer wrote:Hello, AMVAS!
Glad to hear you!

As for the amount of SU-5 SPG - different data exist (from 15 to 30). According to the A.G. Soliankin, M.V. Pavlov, I.V. Pavlov, I.G. Zheltov "Native armoured fighting vehicles" Vol. 1 (1905-1941), Moscow, Exprint, 2002 (I bought via Internet this newest Russian book with the most detailed description of Russian/Soviet AFVs I`ve ever seen) - only 15 SU-5 were produced (six SU-5-1 with 76.2mm gun in 1934, six SU-5-2 with 122mm howitzer in 1937 and three SU-5-3 with 152.4mm mortar in 1934).

I also found a mention that toward 1941 all SU-5s of the Red Army were rearmed with 122mm howitzer only.

According to your very interesting site Soviets had in June 1941 the following number of SU-5: 11 in Far Eastern military district, 6 in Leningrad military district, 3 in Kiev military district and 8 in Western military district - total 28.
May be this is correct data, but I still think that only 15 SU-5 were produced. I believe that sources giving the amount of 28-30 SU-5 also count another SPG, based on light tank T-26 chassis (10 copies of "artillery tank" AT-1 and 5 copies of anti-aircraft SPG SU-6).

As for SU-6 (see my posts from 13 and 19 March here, with the photo links) - it was one of the first track AA SPG in the world (1935-1936), but new powerful 76.2mm AA gun 3K mod. 1931 had quite strong blow-back, so T-26 chassis of SU-6 was equipped with 4 outriggers. Anti-aircraft SPG SU-6 could fire with high accuracy only from the stationary positions (fire accuracy with the speed even 10 km/h was low, SPG jumped up and swinged during the fire), so its planned role as AA SPG of the cavalry and mechanized units was rejected. Also 90 hp engine of T-26 was underpowered for SU-6 (weight 11.3 t instead of 8.4 t of T-26) and suspension overweighted despite the additional road wheel. Ammunition of SU-6 - 48 shells, also SPG had 2x7.62mm MG (in front and behind). SU-6 was also tested with 37mm AA gun. It was planned to produce 14 SU-6 in 1936 - 10 with 37mm automatic AA gun, 4 with 76.2mm AA gun 3K. By January 1937 only 5 were built by plant No. 185 because of unsatisfactory results of the ground test.

So Soviet engineers developed and built in 1935 new experimental AA SPG with the same 76.2 mm AA gun 3K, but based on medium tank T-28 chassis (weight 19 t, ammunition - 108 shells, crew - 6 men, speed 38 km/h). New AA SPG was also equipped with outriggers, but it was possible to fire even without them on the move. Both experimental AA SPGs had all-around traverse of the AA gun and tiltable armored shields of the fighting compartment.
Some sources mention that five experimental SU-6, based on T-26 chassis, served in the Red Army in 1930s.


Hi,
Also glad to hear you.
Just a brief note for SU-5, as it's

early morning here ;)
If you open page 18 of the first

volume of mentioned Pavlov's &Co

book, or page 8 of the vol.2 thereof,

you'll see the overall amount of SU-5

in Armed forces=28. Extra two

vehicles if any, could be

experimental ones.

Regards,
Alex

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Postby BIGpanzer » 25 Dec 2005 23:57

Hi, Alex!
Yes, I`ve checked the Pavlov`s book, seems a little bit strange - total amount of SU-5 in the Red Army was 28 indeed (table of the amount of all Soviet AFVs in 1941), but as for the info in the description of the models - the amount of produced was 6 + 6 + 3. Anyway I don`t know exactly about the amount of produced SU-5 - half of my sources give the number 15, half -28-30 :roll: May be some sources really mix all experimental SPGs, based on T-26 chassis.
The same different info about "artillery tank" AT-1, based also on T-26 chassis - some sources mention 5 copies, some - 10.

By the way, do you have any info about the use of Soviet anti-aircraft SU-6 in 1941 (if so)? Five were produced, three of them were given to the army. It was planned to produce 14 as I wrote yesterday, but five were completely finished and the rest nine was under production when the order was rejected by the army.
One more photo of SU-6: http://commi.narod.ru/txt/ek/su6.jpg

As for the Soviet experimental AA SPG, based on T-28 medium tank chassis (1935), I`ve mentioned above - its name was SU-8.
Blueprint of SU-8: http://yukon47.narod.ru/Thematic_Wallpa ... s/Su-8.jpg

Despite the fact that experimental Soviet AA SPGs SU-6 and SU-8 were not bad, their mobility was insufficient for AA defense of cavalry and mechanized units. So Soviets began to develop different AA SPGs, based on truck chassis (as example - three-axis YaG-10 truck with 76.2mm AA gun, 1935 - http://armor.kiev.ua/Tanks/Modern/Shilk ... 3_72_3.gif or http://rkkaww2.armchairgeneral.com/gall ... 0AAcut.JPG).
Near 61 such AA guns were produced, they were used during the Battle of Moscow, 1941, defending the capital of USSR against German bombers.

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Postby AMVAS » 26 Dec 2005 15:29

BIGpanzer wrote:Hi, Alex!
Yes, I`ve checked the Pavlov`s book, seems a little bit strange - total amount of SU-5 in the Red Army was 28 indeed (table of the amount of all Soviet AFVs in 1941), but as for the info in the description of the models - the amount of produced was 6 + 6 + 3. Anyway I don`t know exactly about the amount of produced SU-5 - half of my sources give the number 15, half -28-30 :roll: May be some sources really mix all experimental SPGs, based on T-26 chassis.
The same different info about "artillery tank" AT-1, based also on T-26 chassis - some sources mention 5 copies, some - 10..


I don't know exactly what happened with that SU-5 and why their amount is so differen. that's why I cited both variants of figures.

By the way, do you have any info about the use of Soviet anti-aircraft SU-6 in 1941 (if so)? Five were produced, three of them were given to the army. It was planned to produce 14 as I wrote yesterday, but five were completely finished and the rest nine was under production when the order was rejected by the army.
One more photo of SU-6: http://commi.narod.ru/txt/ek/su6.jpg


From private talks with Max Kolomiets I heard that 4 SU-6 vehicles existed only on paper. I.e. existed their hulls, but they were not operable. That's all I can cite now 8( Maybe it's worth to ask on some our specialised forums like vif2ne.ru.

As for the Soviet experimental AA SPG, based on T-28 medium tank chassis (1935), I`ve mentioned above - its name was SU-8.
Blueprint of SU-8: http://yukon47.narod.ru/Thematic_Wallpa ... s/Su-8.jpg

Despite the fact that experimental Soviet AA SPGs SU-6 and SU-8 were not bad, their mobility was insufficient for AA defense of cavalry and mechanized units. So Soviets began to develop different AA SPGs, based on truck chassis (as example - three-axis YaG-10 truck with 76.2mm AA gun, 1935 - http://armor.kiev.ua/Tanks/Modern/Shilk ... 3_72_3.gif or http://rkkaww2.armchairgeneral.com/gall ... 0AAcut.JPG).
Near 61 such AA guns were produced, they were used during the Battle of Moscow, 1941, defending the capital of USSR against German bombers.


I heard something about SU-8, but not sure they were more than a single vehicle.

As for YaG-10 trucks with AA guns, I'm trying to find their photos, but seems not much of them exists... :(

Regards,
Alex

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Postby BIGpanzer » 26 Dec 2005 22:58

Hi, Alex!

AMVAS wrote:
I don't know exactly what happened with that SU-5

Me too. But AFAIK several SU-5 were used by Red Army (by Soviet mechanized corps of Kiev military district?) in summer 1941 in Ukraine against Germans - probably, they were lost during the hard tank battles. SU-5s from Leningrad and Western military districts also were lost, probably. As for the SU-5s from Far Eastern military district - they participated in Soviet-Japanese military conflict of 1938, and I couldn`t find any data about their losses - those SU-5s could survive the war.

AMVAS wrote:
From private talks with Max Kolomiets I heard that 4 SU-6 vehicles existed only on paper. I.e. existed their hulls, but they were not operable.


You know Max Kolomiets, that`s great! 8O I`ve read his publications about Soviet tanks and SPGs in different journals, on English also.
As for AA SPG SU-6. I also found today almost the same info - one experimental SU-6 was completed for sure (it was developed by professor F.L. Khlystov from designer office of Artillery Academy of RKKA and built by factory No.185). But as I`ve already mentioned - SU-6 was 2 t overweighted in comparison with light tank T-26, aslo 90 hp engine of T-26 was not powerful for such SPG (it had max. speed only 21 km/h). So armored forces rejected the order to serial production of SU-6 after ground tests. Till January 1937 four chassis of SU-6 were completed, ten were under different stages of production (factory No.185). So one SU-6 was completed + 4 chassis + 10 incompleted. Another sources report that 5 were completed, 3 were given to the army. I think that the first info is more correct.
Me seems that all photos of SU-6 represent the single prototype of SU-6 (1935-1936) during the tests. I found the info that SU-6 was tested during September-October 1935 (factory tests), since 13 October 1935 it was tested at NIAP (research artillery training area) near one year. During that year SU-6 was under repair some time because of forced engine and suspension, also it was tested with 37mm automatic AA gun during three months. During the test race (750 km) engine of SU-6 overheated after each 15-25 km with the speed 25 km/h. 416 shots were made from 76.2mm AA gun of SU-6 during the tests (from stationary positions with/without hydraulic cushioning of the suspension, during the move also) - fire accuracy was average, not good.

AMVAS wrote:
I heard something about SU-8, but not sure they were more than a single vehicle.

Yes, probably only one experimental AA SPG SU-8, based on medium tank T-28, existed (was built in 1935) - it had better mobility than SU-6 as 400 hp engine gave the max. speed 38 km/h.

AMVAS wrote:
As for YaG-10 trucks with AA guns, I'm trying to find their photos, but seems not much of them exists...

Some different info about those trucks YaG-10 with 76.2mm AA guns exists also (12 were produced, 20 were produced or 61?). I found the info that SPG (29K) was developed in 1935 according to the order of the General Artillery Directorate for AA defense of mechanized units. 29K was equipped with the same 76.2mm powerful AA gun mod. 1931 (range of fire - 14 km horizontally, 9.5 km vertically, 15-20 shells/min, 6.61 kg shells) as SU-6 and SU-8. Factory No.8 should produced 20 29K as experimetal series in 1935, but received only 12 YaG-10 chassis. After successfully ground tests in August 1936 army accepted those vehicles. Probably, in addition to 12(20?) experimental 29K several tens were produced as production series. I found a mention that 176th anti-aircraft artillery regiment (Moscow military district) was armed with 50 29K in 1936.

Alex, by the way, do you have any drawing or picture of the Soviet 152-mm SPG of coast defence (engineer A. Tolochkov, 1933), I`ve wrote shortly above. It was a never built project, but of very interesting and progressive design.

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Postby AMVAS » 27 Dec 2005 12:38

BIGpanzer wrote:Hi, Alex!

Me too. But AFAIK several SU-5 were used by Red Army (by Soviet mechanized corps of Kiev military district?) in summer 1941 in Ukraine against Germans - probably, they were lost during the hard tank battles. SU-5s from Leningrad and Western military districts also were lost, probably. As for the SU-5s from Far Eastern military district - they participated in Soviet-Japanese military conflict of 1938, and I couldn`t find any data about their losses - those SU-5s could survive the war.



I suppose those SU-5 were too old and shabby. Sometimes Soviet reports could list vehicles operable, but in reality those had been stayed long ago in some deep corners. So, those mentioned SU-5 could be in similar state stored somewhere in deep corners of depots...
As for the Far Eastern area, I know their BTs and T-26, which took part in the war of 1945 to have extremely shabby state. Hardly SU-5s could have better one....

You know Max Kolomiets, that`s great! 8O I`ve read his publications about Soviet tanks and SPGs in different journals, on English also.


Yep, I meet him when I manage to catch 8) He's too busy for long talks...

As for AA SPG SU-6. I also found today almost the same info - one experimental SU-6 was completed for sure (it was developed by professor F.L. Khlystov from designer office of Artillery Academy of RKKA and built by factory No.185). But as I`ve already mentioned - SU-6 was 2 t overweighted in comparison with light tank T-26, aslo 90 hp engine of T-26 was not powerful for such SPG (it had max. speed only 21 km/h). So armored forces rejected the order to serial production of SU-6 after ground tests. Till January 1937 four chassis of SU-6 were completed, ten were under different stages of production (factory No.185). So one SU-6 was completed + 4 chassis + 10 incompleted. Another sources report that 5 were completed, 3 were given to the army. I think that the first info is more correct.
Me seems that all photos of SU-6 represent the single prototype of SU-6 (1935-1936) during the tests. I found the info that SU-6 was tested during September-October 1935 (factory tests), since 13 October 1935 it was tested at NIAP (research artillery training area) near one year. During that year SU-6 was under repair some time because of forced engine and suspension, also it was tested with 37mm automatic AA gun during three months. During the test race (750 km) engine of SU-6 overheated after each 15-25 km with the speed 25 km/h. 416 shots were made from 76.2mm AA gun of SU-6 during the tests (from stationary positions with/without hydraulic cushioning of the suspension, during the move also) - fire accuracy was average, not good.


Seems our point of view is quite close :)

AMVAS wrote:
As for YaG-10 trucks with AA guns, I'm trying to find their photos, but seems not much of them exists...

Some different info about those trucks YaG-10 with 76.2mm AA guns exists also (12 were produced, 20 were produced or 61?). I found the info that SPG (29K) was developed in 1935 according to the order of the General Artillery Directorate for AA defense of mechanized units. 29K was equipped with the same 76.2mm powerful AA gun mod. 1931 (range of fire - 14 km horizontally, 9.5 km vertically, 15-20 shells/min, 6.61 kg shells) as SU-6 and SU-8. Factory No.8 should produced 20 29K as experimetal series in 1935, but received only 12 YaG-10 chassis. After successfully ground tests in August 1936 army accepted those vehicles. Probably, in addition to 12(20?) experimental 29K several tens were produced as production series. I found a mention that 176th anti-aircraft artillery regiment (Moscow military district) was armed with 50 29K in 1936.


Who knows.... Truck mountings is one of the most unknown pages in our history, as many of those could be done in field workshops. I'm trying to learn more, but still results are not much satisfactory, as I hav to do many other work in parallel.

Alex, by the way, do you have any drawing or picture of the Soviet 152-mm SPG of coast defence (engineer A. Tolochkov, 1933), I`ve wrote shortly above. It was a never built project, but of very interesting and progressive design.


Unfortunately experimental vehicles aren't among my favorable ones. If I meet something about this one, I'll inform you....

Regards,
Alex

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Postby BIGpanzer » 28 Dec 2005 00:45

Hi, Alex!
Well, I don`t know any additional info about SU-5. I can only assume that few SU-5s from western military districts could really be used in 1941 summer tank combats as they served in Soviet mechanized units and their guns were much more powerful than 45mm tank guns of T-26 and BT.
As for their technical state in 1941 - me seems that it will be extremelly hard to find such info. Yes, many Soviet T-26 and BT light tanks (especially of the early production series) were quite foreworn in 1941 as they used for crew training very intensive in 1930s, also there was a shortage of spare parts in some tank and mechanized divisions. As for SU-5 - I don`t know, may be they were in better technical condition as they were used not so intensive during training and maneuvers of 1930s, also they were experimental vehicles and their upkeep should be much more better than of usual T-26. But these are only my suppositions.
Nevertheless, SU-5 were really old in 1941 - they were produced in 1934 and in 1937, also they were overweighted (their weight was 10 t, but light tank T-26 had the weight near 9 t) and that was the reason of their engine overheating.

As for the wheel Soviet SPG - we mentioned shortly three-axis all-wheel-drive truck YaG-10 with 76.2mm AA gun. I am trying also to find some info about YaG-10 chassis with 76mm recoilless gun "K" of L.V. Kurchevsky-type. I only know that such experimental light SPG had the name SU-76K and it was developed in 1933 for reconnaissance units of infantry and cavalry. How much were produced, I don`t know. 76mm recoilless gun used 6.23kg shells (341 m/s), but because of the insufficient efficiency of Kurchevsky`s recoilless guns all further development was stopped in the end of 1934.

I could find only this photo of SU-76K, but not on YaG-10 chassis (this is GAZ-TK chassis). If you have any info about that SPG and/or photo of it (YaG-10 chassis) - let me know, please

Photo of the Soviet SPG SU-76K with 76mm recoilless gun (23 copies on GAZ-TK chassis & unknown but much less amount on YaG-10 chassis, 1933-1934)
is from http://www.weltkrieg.ru/images/original/23/2203.jpg
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Last edited by BIGpanzer on 28 Dec 2005 14:30, edited 1 time in total.

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Postby AMVAS » 28 Dec 2005 10:46

BIGpanzer wrote:Hi, Alex!
Well, I don`t know any additional info about SU-5. I can only assume that few SU-5s from western military districts could really be used in 1941 summer tank combats as they served in Soviet mechanized units and their guns were much more powerful than 45mm tank guns of T-26 and BT.


Yep, it's quite hard to find out exact location of SU-5s...

BIGpanzer wrote:As for their technical state in 1941 - me seems that it will be extremelly hard to find such info. Yes, many Soviet T-26 and BT light tanks (especially of the early production series) were quite foreworn in 1941 as they used for crew training very intensive in 1930s, also there was a shortage of spare parts in some tank and mechanized divisions. As for SU-5 - I don`t know, may be they were in better technical condition as they were used not so intensive during training and maneuvers of 1930s, also they were experimental vehicles and their upkeep should be much more better than of usual T-26. But these are only my suppositions.
Nevertheless, SU-5 were really old in 1941 - they were produced in 1934 and in 1937, also they were overweighted (their weight was 10 t, but light tank T-26 had the weight near 9 t) and that was the reason of their engine overheating.


true

BIGpanzer wrote:As for the wheel Soviet SPG - we mentioned shortly three-axis all-wheel-drive truck YaG-10 with 76.2mm AA gun. I am trying also to find some info about YaG-10 chassis with 76mm recoilless gun "K" of L.V. Kurchevsky-type. I only know that such experimental light SPG had the name SU-76K and it was developed in 1933 for reconnaissance units of infantry and cavalry. How much were produced, I don`t know. 76mm recoilless gun used 6.23kg shells (341 m/s), but because of the insufficient efficiency of Kurchevsky`s recoilless guns all further development was stopped in the end of 1934.

I could find only this photo of SU-76K, but not on YaG-10 chassis (this is GAZ-TK chassis). If you have any info about that SPG and/or photo of it (YaG-10 chassis) - let me know, please


Hey! This photo was either taken from my site, or (in the best case) scanned from the same source, I used!
Look http://rkkaww2.armchairgeneral.com/gall ... trucks.htm
I heard two such vehicles took part in Winter War. But they were too old to be used later.

Regards,
Alex

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Postby Juha Tompuri » 29 Dec 2005 00:06

AMVAS wrote:I heard two such vehicles took part in Winter War. But they were too old to be used later.
Two such guns were captured with limited ammo, by Finns during the Winter War. Another war later sent to Germany for evaluation, never heard after that.
The other is today at Finnish War Museum, Helsinki.
Here some pics I took a year ago:

Regards, Juha
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Postby AMVAS » 29 Dec 2005 05:53

Juha Tompuri wrote:
AMVAS wrote:I heard two such vehicles took part in Winter War. But they were too old to be used later.
Two such guns were captured with limited ammo, by Finns during the Winter War. Another war later sent to Germany for evaluation, never heard after that.
The other is today at Finnish War Museum, Helsinki.
Here some pics I took a year ago:

Regards, Juha


Thx, Juha.

hmm... Seems mounted on trucks were more long....

Regards,
Alex

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Postby BIGpanzer » 01 Jan 2006 01:52

Hello, Alex!
Yes, the photo of Soviet SU-76K (recoilless gun, based on GAZ-TK) I've taken from http://www.weltkrieg.ru looks identical to the photo from your site :)

AMVAS wrote:
I heard two such vehicles took part in Winter War. But they were too old to be used later.

May be those Soviet recoilless SPG were not very old, but almost all of them were discarded and remelted near 1937 as their designer L. Kurchevsky was arrested and executed in 1937 (official crimination - anti-Soviet activity and design of ineffective unpromising guns).
Nevertheless, several recoilless SPG (SU-76K or other name SU-4 or SPK, based on GAZ-TK chassis) were used by reconnaissance battalions of some Soviet tank divisions against Germans in summer 1941.

Some info about GAZ-TK and YaG-10 off-road trucks, were used as the chassis for recoilless guns, I could find.
GAZ-TK (weight 1500 kg, speed 63 km/h) was produced in 1934 (several hundreds were built) - it was a serial car GAZ-A with an additional driving axle, 40hp engine was not powerful for such role, so final drive pinions from GAZ-A car were replaced by pinions from GAZ-AA truck. GAZ-TK was equipped with removable caterpillars for the rear driving wheels - http://rkkaww2.armchairgeneral.com/gall ... TK_SPK.jpg
http://www.autogallery.org.ru/k/g/33gaztk.jpg
But GAZ-TK was not reliable as it was designed in a hurry - the main problem was brake's jamming of the back axles during cross-country drive.

YaG-10 was much better off-road truck (first Soviet three-axis truck, full weight 6800 kg + 8000 kg load, speed 42 km/h, engine "Hercules YX C3" 93.5 hp). It was also equipped with removable caterpillars for the rear driving wheels. Only 333 were produced in 1932-1934 because of stop of the import of USA "Hercules" engines to USSR in 1934.
http://denisovets.narod.ru/yaaz/yaazpro ... AG10_3.jpg
SPG SU-76K, based on YaG-10 chassis had the weight 2.2 t, length 7.44 m, width 3.53 m, ammunition 30 shells and crew 3 men.
Last edited by BIGpanzer on 01 Jan 2006 14:41, edited 4 times in total.

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Postby BIGpanzer » 01 Jan 2006 02:04

Juha wrote:
Two such guns were captured with limited ammo, by Finns during the Winter War. Another war later sent to Germany for evaluation, never heard after that.
The other is today at Finnish War Museum, Helsinki.
Here some pics I took a year ago:


Hello, Juha!
As I remember you've already posted those excellent photos here, in this thread (your post from April, 15th) :wink:

Red Army received 23 GAZ-TK with 76mm recoilless gun of Kurchevsky's type and, probably, several YaG-10 with the same gun. During the Winter War two such SPG (GAZ-TK chassis) served in the 4th separate reconnaissance battalion of notorious 44th infantry division (which commander and commissar were non-professional alarmists and they also organized extremely bad defense of the division units on the march which caused great losses during the Finnish attack, those two guns were also captured on the Raate-road). One of those two recoilless guns is at the Helsinki War Museum at the moment, the second was given from Finns to Germans in spring 1941 and I also know nothing about it.

AMVAS wrote:
hmm... Seems mounted on trucks were more long....


No, the gun at Helsinki museum is exactly the removed gun from captured GAZ-TK (many sources mention this). Also Red Army had officially only one model of recoilless guns in the end of 1930s - 76mm battalion recoilless gun BPK. The seeming short length of the gun is only the optical illusion because of the shield and Juha's camera angle.
The same type of the recoilless gun for SPG - modern photo from Sankt-Petersburg artillery museum, Russia - http://www.weltkrieg.ru/images/original/22/2200.jpg

Note: that 76mm recoilless gun was designed as light portable gun (weight only 130-180 kg), it could be easily removed from the wheel chassis by its crew and used from the ground.

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BIGpanzer
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Postby BIGpanzer » 01 Jan 2006 16:17

I found that Soviets also built several other experimental SPGs on wheel chassis. It is possible to mention TAKT-37 (1938) –37mm automatic AA gun on ZiS-12 truck. But its ground tests in autumn 1938 were not successful.

Quite good ZiS-30 (57mm AT gun on half-track ZiS-41) was designed in July 1941 and it was planned to start its serial production, but the shortage of ZiS-41 half-track chassis stopped it.

Test production of 25mm automatic rapid-fire twinned AA gun 72K on ZiS-11 chassis began in 1943.

But the most interesting and successful Soviet experimental wheel SPG was KSP-76 (“kolesnaya samohodnaya pushka, 76mm” = Wheel Self-propelled Gun, 76mm). It was built in May 1944 as the single prototype by Gorky Car Factory (GAZ). It was intended for close combat support and AT defense of infantry and cavalry units. 76mm divisional gun mod. 1942 was placed in original low armored open top hull, based on GAZ-63 four-wheel drive cross-country truck. I've already mentioned KSP-76 in the thread about Soviet armoured cars: viewtopic.php?t=77158&highlight=ba10
KSP-76 was an excellent light anti-tank SPG with the weight two times less than of serial SU-76 tracked SPG, also KSP-76 was more maneuverable, less visible because of low hull and much more lean-burn. The cross-country ability was also excellent – 1 m ford, 30 degree of road elevating, 60 km/h speed on ice road. But the war came to end and it was decided not to produce the completely new SPG.
Specifications of KSP-76 ( GAZ-68 ): weight 5300 kg, speed 62-77 km/h, armament 76.2mm AT gun ZiS-3 mod. 1942 (ammunition 58 shells), engine 6-cyl. GAZ-11 85 hp, armor 4-16.5 mm, range 350-580 km, dimensions 6350x2050x1550 mm. SPG was equipped with the radiostation 12RT.
http://armoured.vif2.ru/ksp-76.jpg (preserved KSP-76 at Kubinka Tank Museum, Russia)
http://armoured.vif2.ru/ksp-76_1.jpg (picture)

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Postby BIGpanzer » 03 Jan 2006 22:51

AMVAS, do you know how much experimental SPGs SU-76K (76.2mm recoilless gun, mounted on tankette T-27; see my post from 8 April here with the photo) were produced by Soviets?
Some sources mention that only one were built in 1933 and during ground tests its recoilless gun was exploded because of double loading by mistake. But another sources report that a few were built in addition to several dozens of such recoilless SPGs, based on different trucks and even motorcycles.


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