The Irish Republic, Allied or Axis leaning in WW2

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Andy H
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The Irish Republic, Allied or Axis leaning in WW2

#1

Post by Andy H » 23 Apr 2005, 02:49

PLEASE NOTE THAT THIS THREAD STARTED OUT AS A WHAT IF, HOWEVER THE COURSE OF THE DEBATE HAS WIDENED BEYOND A WI & INTO A MORE SEMINAL THREAD ABOUT THE IRISH IN WW2 & IT'S POLICIES

The Irish Goverment of De Valera would not willing join the Allied cause, so to give this WI some legs, the following scenario is the basis for it.

As were aware Germany had some plans to possibly invade the Eire Republic, as a potential backdoor entry into the UK. So this plan is put into operation and a attempted German invasion is launched, in summer-autumn 1940. The German forces are defeated by British forces land forces from the North, with the RN & RAF playing a key role in destroying the German logistical tail. This brings about the fall of the Goverment of De Valera, and the introduction of a anti-German, pro-British/Allied Goverment.

Eire is committed to the British/Allied cause from late 1940 onwards.

What are the reprocussions for the Allies & the Axis?

My viewpoint:-

Well historically the Irish Army was very small upon the outbreak of WW2-some 6,200 regulars and around 22,000 Reservists/Volunteers. Its equipment was mostlyy British in origin and dated in main.
Now given that Britain itself after the trials of 1940, was short in various categories of military equipment it's doubtful that much could be spared for the Irish Army intially.
However over time the Army grew to somewhere between 250,000-300,000 strong. Organised into 2 Divisions (1st & 2nd), plus 2 Independent Brigades and around 3-4 Garrison Btns's.

I would forsee at some stage at least one division being utilised by the Allies (DDay+?) whilst the remaining divion supplied reserves and the other units provided internal security (Against any IRA attacks etc)

The need for British Divisions (some 4 in number at one stage) to be stationed in NI would be reduced, thus potentially giving the British General Staff extra divisions (2-3 at most) for use in other theatre's from 1941 onwards. Britain would still keep at least a Division in NI to provide internal security (again against IRA attacks etc)

From the Maritime point of view the Irish Navy would be of no great asset, though any merchant ships would be welcome, especially in the UBoat heydays of post June 1940 through to 1942. The real prize for the Britain and eventually the Allies would be the former British naval bases/facilities at Queenstown, Berehaven and Lough Swilly. These bases would enable the Coastal forces to reach further into the Atlantic (not by much but every mile added the better), provide better protection to the SW Approaches and provide a more westerly port for convoys-both inward and outward.

I'm unsure to the specific nature and skills of the Irish economy at the time, so I'm unaware what they could add in terms of economic return to the war effort.

Regards

Andy H
Last edited by Andy H on 08 May 2005, 11:54, edited 2 times in total.

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#2

Post by junk2drive » 23 Apr 2005, 05:35

A major defeat for Germany while attempting the invasion would have changed the war more than adding the Irish to the mix.
Other what if threads discuss Spain, Portugal, Azores. Wouldn't ports in these places be required for the German Naval support?
The USA had plans for bases in NI in 1940. If your story follows through, maybe west coast ports would have helped the Allies logistics.
I rather see a Sealion with Irish support, and a goal to unite Ireland.


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#3

Post by Jon G. » 23 Apr 2005, 06:22

I think the really beneficial effect of Eire joining up with the Allies would be maritime as you say, but the major effect would be in narrowing the air gap over the Atlantic - either by stationing RAF Coastal Command squadrons in western Ireland, or by beefing up the Irish air force (if there even was one?); I think the RAF would consider this worthwhile even in 1940.

Consequently, German U-Boat losses in the Biscay may well have been larger than they were historically, and the Condor 'Scourge of the Atlantic' would be checked earlier - these planes would not have been able to make Norway-France flights very easily if at all with any Allied air assets to speak of in Ireland.

I think deployment of the Irish army would be jealously guarded by the Irish government, ally or not - I think it's more likely that Irish land forces would have formed garrisons in the North Atlantic - Iceland and the Faroe Islands, with perhaps a token brigade deployed either in the Mediterranean or for D-Day.

The main Irish contribution would be on the convoy routes, as you say - added merchant tonnage for the convoy routes, air bases and likely also a rapid expansion of the Irish navy similar to the expansion the Canadian navy went through. Maybe they would have concentrated on building corvettes of a similar design as the Flower Class?

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#4

Post by Tony Williams » 23 Apr 2005, 07:37

The British only handed over their Irish bases shortly before the war. So in my alternate WW2 novel, 'The Foresight War', I have them hanging on to them for the duration. A much simpler solution than trying to get Ireland to join in...

Tony Williams: Military gun and ammunition website and discussion forum

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#5

Post by Andy H » 24 Apr 2005, 18:37

Well some 70,000 men of Eire joined the British Amed Services is various capacities during the war, whilst some 150,000 went to Britain for employment in various war industries.

Still searching for industrial/economic info covering Eire in WW2

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#6

Post by Jon G. » 25 Apr 2005, 05:24

Whatever the Irish economy could contribute in terms of industrial/agricultural production, it would probably need imports of raw materials, fertilizer, farm machinery etc. thus increasing the strain on the Atlantic lifelines if the Irish economy were to move above and beyond simple subsistence and contribute to the Allied war effort.

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#7

Post by Andy H » 25 Apr 2005, 11:41

It seems that both Eire & NI were able to substain themselves foodwise throughout the war, and in fact had a surplus. In the spirit of kindered folk, the pop of NI went on the same rations as the mainland, eyt they didn't have too.

The Eire firebrigade it seems sent units north to help out in Belfast etc, whilst a large amount of Butter came through Eire for the British. Eire's shipbuilding industry wasn't huge but it had a decent base for ship repairs, which would have eased the burden of British yards, drowning under the amount of vessels requireing refit's,repairs and modifications due to wartime usage

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#8

Post by Benny C. » 01 May 2005, 16:50

As an Irishman I find the original post hard to believe. Any pro-British government would have had serious civil unrest problems to deal with. The army would have been tied up dealing with this and saboutage at any ports used by the British would have made the whole thing more of a burden than a help.

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#9

Post by Polynikes » 01 May 2005, 17:05

Benny C. wrote:As an Irishman I find the original post hard to believe. Any pro-British government would have had serious civil unrest problems to deal with. The army would have been tied up dealing with this and saboutage at any ports used by the British would have made the whole thing more of a burden than a help.
Why?

Did the British have such issues in India, Egypt, Iceland?

If de Valera had allowed the allies to use Irish soil to base ships and aircraft on, do you really think Irishmen would risked their lives to attack them?

The Irish would be most concerned with their own welfare and around any allied bases, I'm sure they'd fall over themsellves to get a share of supplying allied forces and taking employment from them.

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#10

Post by Benny C. » 01 May 2005, 17:10

Polynikes;
You seem to underestimate the anti-British feeling in Ireland at this time. The Irish were still fighting the British for the return of northern Ireland and you think that the Irish people would just let the British come in and use their country as a military base, I dont think so.

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#11

Post by Andy H » 01 May 2005, 21:11

Benny C. wrote:As an Irishman I find the original post hard to believe. Any pro-British government would have had serious civil unrest problems to deal with. The army would have been tied up dealing with this and saboutage at any ports used by the British would have made the whole thing more of a burden than a help.
Hi Benny

You have to read the scenario, which is plausible.

Also as we have noted some 250,000 Irish (Eire Rep) helped the British in one form or another during the war. Also the actual level of IRA attacks during the war was minimal, and I think they ceased altogether after 1943. Both Goverments craked down hard on them.

Again Benny the scenario is the key to this.

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#12

Post by Benny C. » 01 May 2005, 21:18

Andy wrote;
Also as we have noted some 250,000 Irish (Eire Rep) helped the British in one form or another during the war
I would love to see some evidence for this.

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#13

Post by Andy H » 01 May 2005, 21:28

Benny C. wrote:Andy wrote;
Also as we have noted some 250,000 Irish (Eire Rep) helped the British in one form or another during the war
I would love to see some evidence for this.
Read Northern Ireland in the Second World War by John W Blake ISBN 0856406783

Though obviously dealing in the main about NI it cannot but fail to mention throughout the various links between the 2 parts of Ireland and the inetr-relationship between the two. The information is scattered throughout the book.

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#14

Post by Andy H » 01 May 2005, 21:34

But what of Irish veterans of WW2? Wartime censorship, “nationalist denial” and the façade of neutrality ensured that Irish people who served and fought were not acknowledged, honoured or even recognised. Consider the figures.
During the War the then Irish Free State raised a volunteer Army of circa 55,000 men with a Reserve of 100,000. In addition to this figure 165,000 citizens of the Free State voluntarily enlisted in the British Army plus the RN and RAF and other Commonwealth forces as well as US forces.

The number of Irish citizens volunteering for service from the then Free State far exceeded the number of people who volunteered from all of Ireland during The Great War.

When Ireland applied to join the United Nations, her position in WW2 was summed up by the British Dominion’s Secretary, Viscount Cranbourne on 32 Feb 1945. He gave the following examples of Irish co-operation:
1) The arrangement of Staff talks to plan against a possible German invasion and the subsequent close liaison between the British and Irish Authorities.
2) The similar liaison between Irish and British intelligence regarding all aliens (including Germans) resident in Ireland.
3) Permission given to Allied aircraft to over-fly a corridor of Irish territory (the Donegal corridor from Lough Erne in Fermanagh NI) for easier access to the Atlantic.
4) The transmission of meteorological reports and of submarine and air activity around Irish coasts
5) Internment of all German fighting personnel reaching Ireland and the sharply contrasting treatment of Allied personnel who by the early stages of the War were allowed “to depart freely” and who were given full assistance in the recovery of damaged aircraft.
6) The Irish Government’s silent acquiescence in the departure from their jurisdiction of thousand’s of Irishmen who wished to serve in the Allied Forces and in their returning to Ireland on leave (in civilian clothing provided at British ports).
7) The establishment of a radar station in Southern Ireland for use against the latest forms of submarine warfare.
http://www.militaryheritagetours.com/in ... h2005.html

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#15

Post by Benny C. » 01 May 2005, 21:35

Andy;
As I'm sure you know Northern Ireland is a completely separate country to the Republic of Ireland and this thread deals with De-Valera's Republic and I am just pointing out that there is no way that 250,000 men of the R.O.I. helped the British war effort so you will have to be more specific because the R.O.I. and Northern Ireland cannot be connected in any way.

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