Axis History Forum

This is an apolitical forum for discussions on the Axis nations and related topics hosted by Marcus Wendel's Axis History Factbook in cooperation with Michael Miller's Axis Biographical Research, Christoph Awender's WW2 day by dayand Christian Ankerstjerne’s Panzerworld.

Skip to content

If you found the forum useful please consider supporting us. You can also support us by buying books through the AHF Bookstore.

German codebreaking agencies

Discussions on the intelligence operations and espionage of the Axis, Allies and neutral states.

German codebreaking agencies

Postby paspartoo on 20 Jan 2012 09:28

The German agencies dealing with signals intelligence and codebreaking were:

OKH/GdNA (Oberkommando des Heeres. General der Nachrichten Aufklaerung) - Signal Intelligence Agency of the Army High Command ,(prior to 1944 known as Inspectorate 7/VI)


OKL/Gen Na Fue/III (Oberkommando der Luftwaffe/General Nachrichten Fuehrer/Abteilung III) - Signal Intelligence Service of the Air Force High Command.


OKM/SKL IV/III (Oberkommando der Marine/Seekriegsleitung/ IV/III) - Signal Intelligence Agency of the Navy High Command.


OKW/Chi (Oberkommando der Wehrmacht/Chiffrier Abteilung) - Signal Intelligence Agency of the Supreme Command of the Armed Forces.


Pers Z S (Sorderdienst des Referats Z in der Personal Abteilung des Auswaertigen Amtes) - Cryptanalytic Section of the Foreign Office.


Reichsluftfahrtministerium Forschungsamt (Air Ministry Research Department ) – Goering's Research Bureau

OKW/WNV/FU (Oberkommando der Wehrmacht, Wehrmacht Nachrichten Verbindungen Funkuberwachung) - Radio Defense Corps of the Armed Forces High Command.


Waffenpruefung Abteilung 7/IV - Army Ordnance, Development and Testing Group, Signal Branch Group IV , (Wa Pruef 7/IV)

Reich Wetterdienst - Meteorological Service


Deutsche Reichspost - Postal Ministry


Just thought to mention them all in one place.
A simple economist with an unhealthy interest in military and intelligence history.....
http://chris-intel-corner.blogspot.com/
paspartoo
Member
Greece
 
Posts: 717
Joined: 07 Feb 2009 13:35

Re: German codebreaking agencies

Postby Carl Schwamberger on 21 Jan 2012 02:48

I wonder what message traffic the Reichsluftfahrtministerium Forschungsamt was aimed at. It seems doubly redundant to the OKL/Gen Na Fue/III.

Did the Gestapo have control of a signals intercept & decryption service? How did the Abwehr fit into this?
Carl Schwamberger
Forum Staff
United States
 
Posts: 5308
Joined: 02 Sep 2006 20:31
Location: USA

Re: German codebreaking agencies

Postby paspartoo on 21 Jan 2012 08:32

Carl Schwamberger wrote:I wonder what message traffic the Reichsluftfahrtministerium Forschungsamt was aimed at. It seems doubly redundant to the OKL/Gen Na Fue/III.

Did the Gestapo have control of a signals intercept & decryption service? How did the Abwehr fit into this?


The Forschungsamt was only part of the Air Ministry for cover.It was the Nazi party's intelligence and codebreaking agency and intercepted mail,teletype and telephone traffic. It's targets were mainly diplomatic and commercial codes ,although in one case it's machine specialist solved a Russian military cipher machine.
Regarding Gestapo and Abwehr the only contact they would have with these agencies would be to give them captured agents messages and ask for a solution.
Officially only these organisations were tasked with codebreaking ,however both the Abwehr and the SD employed some codebreakers.

A breakdown by traffic :

Diplomatic: Pers Z , OKW/Chi , FA
Military : OKH, OKL, OKM , OKW/Chi , Meteorological Service
Work against radio-spies in Germany and occupied areas: Radio Defence Corps
Special tasks: Post Office( American A3 speech scrambler) , Wa Pruef 7/IV (solution of speech scramblers , interception of multichannel radio-teletype traffic)
A simple economist with an unhealthy interest in military and intelligence history.....
http://chris-intel-corner.blogspot.com/
paspartoo
Member
Greece
 
Posts: 717
Joined: 07 Feb 2009 13:35

Re: German codebreaking agencies

Postby paspartoo on 29 Jan 2012 09:10

A correction : the Vetterlein unit should be :
Forschungsamt der Deutschen Reichspost - Research Bureau of the German Post Office
A simple economist with an unhealthy interest in military and intelligence history.....
http://chris-intel-corner.blogspot.com/
paspartoo
Member
Greece
 
Posts: 717
Joined: 07 Feb 2009 13:35

Re: German codebreaking agencies

Postby paspartoo on 04 Feb 2012 13:37

One more unit : Funkabwehrdienst der Ordnungspolizei - Radio Defence department of the Order Police
Also a correction.Most authors call the Vetterlein unit Forschungsstelle der Deutschen Reichspost
A simple economist with an unhealthy interest in military and intelligence history.....
http://chris-intel-corner.blogspot.com/
paspartoo
Member
Greece
 
Posts: 717
Joined: 07 Feb 2009 13:35

Re: German codebreaking agencies

Postby Panzermahn on 11 Feb 2012 11:13

Hello Paspartoo

I wonder if the German units below were also considered signals intelligence and codebreaking units:

1. Kriegsmarine B-Dienst (Beobachtungdienst - Observation Service) - monitored Allied navies radio traffic and breaking Allied merchant navy code

2. SIPO/SD mobile radio detection and finding units (I can't recall the German name for these SIPO/SD units)
Panzermahn
Member
Malaysia
 
Posts: 3453
Joined: 13 Jul 2002 03:51
Location: Malaysia

Re: German codebreaking agencies

Postby Panzermahn on 11 Feb 2012 11:19

Carl Schwamberger wrote:I wonder what message traffic the Reichsluftfahrtministerium Forschungsamt was aimed at. It seems doubly redundant to the OKL/Gen Na Fue/III.

Did the Gestapo have control of a signals intercept & decryption service? How did the Abwehr fit into this?


Hello Carl

The Gestapo usually works in conjunction with the Sicherheitspolizei (SIPO) and Sicherheitsdienst mobile radio detection and finding units to detect illegal radio transmission from Allied spies in Germany. VE Tarrant's book The Red Orchestra (1995) describes several of these units working (usually in troika for the obvious purpose of signal triangulation) to detect the communist Rote Kapelle network operating in Germany. I am not sure Gestapo would have its own signals intercept and decryption units since the SD handled these matters within Germany as a matter of security policy

Panzermahn
Panzermahn
Member
Malaysia
 
Posts: 3453
Joined: 13 Jul 2002 03:51
Location: Malaysia

Re: German codebreaking agencies

Postby paspartoo on 11 Feb 2012 12:19

Panzermahn wrote:Hello Paspartoo

I wonder if the German units below were also considered signals intelligence and codebreaking units:

1. Kriegsmarine B-Dienst (Beobachtungdienst - Observation Service) - monitored Allied navies radio traffic and breaking Allied merchant navy code

2. SIPO/SD mobile radio detection and finding units (I can't recall the German name for these SIPO/SD units)



1).The B-Dienst was OKM/SKL IV/III .
2).Radio defence units belonged either to OKW/WNV/FU III or the similar department of the Ordnungspolizei. They did not have cryptanalytic capability. For that purpose they were dependent on the agents section of the army agency OKH/In 7/VI (Inspectorate 7/VI). Eventually that department was moved to OKW.
There was also a connection of the Gestapo,SD, Orpo with the Forschungsamt for agents codes.
A simple economist with an unhealthy interest in military and intelligence history.....
http://chris-intel-corner.blogspot.com/
paspartoo
Member
Greece
 
Posts: 717
Joined: 07 Feb 2009 13:35

Re: German codebreaking agencies

Postby Panzermahn on 11 Feb 2012 15:29

paspartoo wrote:
Panzermahn wrote:Hello Paspartoo

I wonder if the German units below were also considered signals intelligence and codebreaking units:

1. Kriegsmarine B-Dienst (Beobachtungdienst - Observation Service) - monitored Allied navies radio traffic and breaking Allied merchant navy code

2. SIPO/SD mobile radio detection and finding units (I can't recall the German name for these SIPO/SD units)



1).The B-Dienst was OKM/SKL IV/III .
2).Radio defence units belonged either to OKW/WNV/FU III or the similar department of the Ordnungspolizei. They did not have cryptanalytic capability. For that purpose they were dependent on the agents section of the army agency OKH/In 7/VI (Inspectorate 7/VI). Eventually that department was moved to OKW.
There was also a connection of the Gestapo,SD, Orpo with the Forschungsamt for agents codes.


Paspartoo,

Many thanks for the clarification. Perhaps you should considered writting a book about German Signal Intelligence during WW2 based on your expertise of this subject

Also, do you know if TeNO has any technical radio intelligence units?

Panzermahn
Panzermahn
Member
Malaysia
 
Posts: 3453
Joined: 13 Jul 2002 03:51
Location: Malaysia

Re: German codebreaking agencies

Postby Panzermahn on 11 Feb 2012 15:30

By the way, RLM's Forschungsamt were also involved in attempts of tapping the trans-Atlantic undersea cable telephone communications between Churchill and Roosevelt. However I am not sure how successful it is.
Panzermahn
Member
Malaysia
 
Posts: 3453
Joined: 13 Jul 2002 03:51
Location: Malaysia

Re: German codebreaking agencies

Postby paspartoo on 11 Feb 2012 16:21

Panzermahn wrote:
Many thanks for the clarification. Perhaps you should considered writting a book about German Signal Intelligence during WW2 based on your expertise of this subject

Also, do you know if TeNO has any technical radio intelligence units?

Panzermahn


For now i can point you to my blog.In the future who knows.
What is TeNO ?

Panzermahn wrote:By the way, RLM's Forschungsamt were also involved in attempts of tapping the trans-Atlantic undersea cable telephone communications between Churchill and Roosevelt. However I am not sure how successful it is.


File HW 40/188 'POW reports relating to German work against transatlantic telephones, cable tapping etc' has information on that. None of the people interrogated had any information that such an operation was actually carried out.
A simple economist with an unhealthy interest in military and intelligence history.....
http://chris-intel-corner.blogspot.com/
paspartoo
Member
Greece
 
Posts: 717
Joined: 07 Feb 2009 13:35

Re: German codebreaking agencies

Postby Panzermahn on 11 Feb 2012 16:41

Hello Paspartoo

TeNO is the Technische Nothilfe, a German paramilitary organization responsible for technical/engineering/emergency services.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Technische_Nothilfe

I was wondering if they could have been involved radio and telecommunication services under the Third Reich.

Also, do you know what type of codes or radio communication system that the Germans used for its agents in the Eastern Front especially those used by Unternehmen Zeppelin saboteurs as well as FAK/FAT commandos?

Panzermahn
Panzermahn
Member
Malaysia
 
Posts: 3453
Joined: 13 Jul 2002 03:51
Location: Malaysia

Re: German codebreaking agencies

Postby paspartoo on 11 Feb 2012 17:00

Panzermahn wrote:Hello Paspartoo

TeNO is the Technische Nothilfe, a German paramilitary organization responsible for technical/engineering/emergency services.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Technische_Nothilfe

I was wondering if they could have been involved radio and telecommunication services under the Third Reich.

Also, do you know what type of codes or radio communication system that the Germans used for its agents in the Eastern Front especially those used by Unternehmen Zeppelin saboteurs as well as FAK/FAT commandos?

Panzermahn


Nope i haven't read anything about that organisation in post war files. The codes used by the 'Havel institute' ( which controlled agents in Eastern Europe) : 'simple transposition' , 'transposition based on a book' , 'wheel' ( i assume something similar to the Kryha machine) .
A simple economist with an unhealthy interest in military and intelligence history.....
http://chris-intel-corner.blogspot.com/
paspartoo
Member
Greece
 
Posts: 717
Joined: 07 Feb 2009 13:35


Return to Intelligence Operations and Espionage

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: CommonCrawl [Bot] and 0 guests