Was Bormann a top secret spy for Russia?

[eric7]

I agree with the writer General Gehlen was not head of military intelligence but FHO in the East but one of the best German intelligence leaders in ww2 Germany.
The U.S military used him to head the post war German intelligence that greatly helped Germany against the Russians after ww2

[Marcus]

An off-topic post by eric7 was removed.

/Marcus

[ljadw]

About Bormann : there are no proofs that he was a Soviet spy,there are no proofs that he had access to military information : only Louis Kelzer,eccentrics (an euphemism) as H.Makow,and ..... R.Gehlen .


About Gehlen (we are going of-topic):he was not very good (an other euphemism) as chief of FHO (he had no intelligence experience),and ,his career as chief of the BND (the German CIA) ended in disgrace,when it became public knowledge that the BND totally was infiltrated by the East German SSD.

About his memoirs: they have been reviewed by some one of the CIA,and received a C .

I cite : As far as we know....the Germans never had a good political penetration in East Germany or anywhere else in the Soviet Block .Thus,Gehlen's descriptions of most of his so-called successes in the political intelligence field are,in my opinion,either wishful thinking or self delusion .

from 1962 onward,due primarily to the Felfe and Spiegel affaires the influence of the BND on Bonn foreign policu was close to zero .



Source : The Service:the memoirs of general Reinhard Gehlen by Reinhard Gehlen . Book review by anonymous .

[steverodgers801]

Considering his failures as head of east front intelligence, its no wonder Gehlens post war career was no better. I have heard that Bormann may have been a spy, but there have been no evidence to back up the claims.

[paspartoo]

I don’t think that Gehlen was that bad. He was not infallible but he made a fool of himself by claiming in his memoirs that he was always right. It would be interesting to have a discussion on the wartime performance of FHO.

[steve248]

I would like to add my agreement that Bormann was not a Soviet spy.

Between 1960 and 1998 the prosecutors of the Zentrale Stelle, Ludwigsburg, had an investigation into Martin Bormann. One of the themes they dismissed as early as the 1960s, was that Bormann had been a Soviet spy. They took a wide range of statements from people who knew Bormann and who had worked for Bormann. Of the latter group, many said Bormann was a technophobe. He had thick fingers and had trouble with a typewriter and the telephone system.

His daily movements, meetings, etc, precluded any time away from government groups and Hitler. Therefore the passing on of information was very difficult.

Obviously any information could not have been posted, or sent by courier as out of date by the time of arrival.
Both the Gestapo and the Abwehr were regularly checking the air-waves for illegal radio transmissions and direction-finding the sets. One poster above mention rightly mentions the Rote Kapelle as an example.

The theme of Bormann and Heinrich Müller (Amtschef, RSHA IV) acting as Soviet spies is romantic inaccurate speculation.

Anyone passing through Ludwigsburg can examine the relevant files: Bundesarchiv Ludwigsburg, references B162/20067 to 20073.

[eric7]

I still believe Bormann was a top secret spy because German military intelligence in late ww2 picked up powerful radio messages from Berlin to Moscow, the U.S after all had broken the top secret code of Japan who stupidly thought their code was "impossible to break" the reason they lost the war because of very smart code breakers in England and America.
As I wrote before any librarian can locate the book , was Bormann a spy ? by inter library loan.
General Gehlen was one of the smartest German intelligence officers in German military intelligence and what he said about Bormann has to be taken seriously for historical truth.
The U.S was very fortunate to capture Gen Gehlen after ww2 and placed him to head the German federal agency or the new post war German government did against the Communist threat.
eric7

[ljadw]

1) I like to see ONE proof for the claim that late WWII there were radio messages from Berlin to Moscow

2)I like to see the proof that there was a connection with Bormann:after all,Bormann was not in Berlin,but in Rastenburg/Berchtesgaden .

3) I like to see a proof (one is enough) that the US code-breakers won the war against Japan.

4)And,about the claim that Gehlen was one of the smartest German intelligence officers :during the war,FHO was unable to forecast Uranus and Bagration,and,after the war,the BND was infiltrated by the Soviets .

All we have are unsourced claims by

a disgraced intelligence chief (Gehlen)

a journalist looking for a good story (Kilzer)

someone,of whom we still not know why he was released by the Fuller Institute (Massachusetts): Makow .

The whole story is an invention,very interesting for the readers of Stern,News of the World,and other such intellectual magazines .

[steve248]

At great expense in my time I decided to check up the book that eric7 felt unable to name. My time was wasted.

Presumably he is discussing "Hitler's Traitor. Martin Bormann and the Defeat of the Reich by Louis Kilzer, published by Presidio, Novata in 2000.

1. The reviews of the books are of the sensational kind. I just cannot get my head round one review saying Bormann was Kremlin source "Werther". eric7 might post a request in this "intelligence and espionage" section asking for information on "Werther" as an intelligence source and see what comes up.
2. And Bormann was operating on behalf of the "Illuminati" who appear to be some kind of "international Jewish financiers" - the very people Hitler and Bormann condemned from the 1920s for causing the demise of Germany as a power before and after World War One.
3. And - Louis Kilzer is a two times Pulitzer prize winner! Obviously not many apples in the barrel to choose from in those years.

Frankly, even David Irving would not stoop to quote this work and I heartily recommend Forum members to avoid this book as a waste of money and book space. eric7 ought to get out more - like Ludwigsburg and check the reference I recommended.

Kilzer has also written a book about Churchill and World War II. Two pieces of garbage printed. Makes you want to weep.

[eric7]

The information Steve 248 wrote aboyut was fascinating as I didn t realize General Gehlen thought he was 'always right´' but Gen. Gehlen was in my opinion one of the smartest Generals in the German military intelligence as was Admiral Canaris executed by Hitler .
About Bormann he didn t like pictures taken of him from a book I saw , Was Bormann a spy ? Late in ww2 Bormann was possibly hidden from many German people who may have known he was only a secretary to Htiler but had access to important information and became powerful, possibly more than Himmler by late 1944 because after Himmler was caught seeking peace with the British or U.S military it was Bormann who told Hitler that Himmler was guilty of treason in the bunker.
eric7

[Harro]

I still believe Bormann was a top secret spy because German military intelligence in late ww2 picked up powerful radio messages from Berlin to Moscow

Sure, in 1939 Berlin had 4,338,756 inhabitants yet you provide no prove what so ever that Bormann was the only Berliner with a powerful radio, where Bormann supposedly kept this powerful radio hidden, or that Bormann was in Berlin when these messages were send. Probably because you have not provided any substantial prove that German military intelligence picked up such messages late in WW2.

For example, answer this one question: give us some dates on which these messages supposedly where intercepted.

Like with your believes concerning Diefenthal, your facts are based on wishful thinking instead of credible evidence.

[paspartoo]

I still believe Bormann was a top secret spy because German military intelligence in late ww2 picked up powerful radio messages from Berlin to Moscow, 7

Pfff, I said the same thing twice but here’s a third try. After the Germans dismantled the Soviet spy networks in Berlin and Western Europe (Rote Kapelle) they engaged in radio-games with the Soviets. The Soviet intelligence service did not know that its networks were under German control thus they accepted German disinformation.
These operations were under the control of the internal security agencies of the RSHA. Since neither the Abwehr nor the Army knew about these radiogames it could be possible that Gehlen and Canaris would mistake them for clandestine communications between German traitors and Moscow.

Alternatively during the war and as the collapse of Germany drew near some of the people in charge of the radiogames could have switched sides.

[eric7]

I hit the wrong button and got cut off so to continue to answer jadw proof the U,.S and or England won the war by codebreakers, the internet should have that information under ww2 won by U.S codebreakers , will jdaw agree the U.S did break the Japanese purple code and knew Japan would hit the U.S but not where and could have put numerous military ships together at Pearl Harbour to tempt Japan to hit the U,S and create war against Japan.
Proving Bormann was a top secret spy for Russia is hard to prove but he could have been a spy.
I´ll search the internet and see if I can find more facts about Bormann but those who disagree with me have to admit by 1943 Bormann became powerful in the Nazi regime below or equal to Himmler in power.
IF Bormann was a spy who was powerful in the nazi regime he could easily give constant information about the German military likely from 1-2 German high ranking military officers who hated the maniac Hitler as many actually did by 1943 in the German military.
eric7

[eric7]

To answer valid facts paspartoo wrote how the RSHA sent Russia disinformation I ddn t know that which is very interesting.
eric7

[ljadw]

I hit the wrong button and got cut off so to continue to answer jadw proof the U,.S and or England won the war by codebreakers, the internet should have that information under ww2 won by U.S codebreakers , will jdaw agree the U.S did break the Japanese purple code and knew Japan would hit the U.S but not where and could have put numerous military ships together at Pearl Harbor to tempt Japan to hit the U,S and create war against Japan.

eric7

That is the old Pearl Harbour conspiracy nonsens .
And,IIRC,the purple code was a diplomatic code, not a military .