German computer based code breaking

[stg 44]

I've read an article several months back about German advancements in analog computing in the 1930s and noticed there was a section about how the Germans did not start using computers to analyze Allied codes until 1944, which netted some success. Why didn't they use computers for that purpose sooner? Does anyone else having information about German computer based code breaking?

[paspartoo]

Don’t you think it would be best if you actually linked to that article so we can read it and judge what it says?

I’m not sure what you mean by ‘computers’. Back then they did not have general purposes computers like the ones we use today. They had IBM punch card equipment and for codebreaking they built specialized mechanical devices. The Germans used both for codebreaking purposes. They even built a device to solve the US M-209 cipher machine.

[stg 44]

Don’t you think it would be best if you actually linked to that article so we can read it and judge what it says?

I’m not sure what you mean by ‘computers’. Back then they did not have general purposes computers like the ones we use today. They had IBM punch card equipment and for codebreaking they built specialized mechanical devices. The Germans used both for codebreaking purposes. They even built a device to solve the US M-209 cipher machine.

http://www.computer.org/csdl/mags/an/19 ... 4-abs.html

[wm]

Analog computers resemble the things we call computers today in name only.
They are simply speaking elaborate slide rules, good in arithmetics but terrible in logic, of no use for sorting or text comparison.
So the German advancements in analog computing were useless in code breaking, and even useless as a precursor for digital computers.

[paspartoo]

Don’t you think it would be best if you actually linked to that article so we can read it and judge what it says?

I’m not sure what you mean by ‘computers’. Back then they did not have general purposes computers like the ones we use today. They had IBM punch card equipment and for codebreaking they built specialized mechanical devices. The Germans used both for codebreaking purposes. They even built a device to solve the US M-209 cipher machine.

http://www.computer.org/csdl/mags/an/19 ... 4-abs.html

Thanks for linking but I don’t have a subscription nor do I intend to pay 19$ for that article. Can't you summarize the article?

[stg 44]

Unfortunatly I cannot find my copy of the article otherwise I would share it.

[paspartoo]

A friend was able to give me a copy of ‘Alwin Walther, IPM, and the Development of Calculator/Computer Technology in Germany, 1930-1945’. It is an interesting article and I assume the comment about codebreaking is from page 337:

A 1970 report says: In 1943, Hollerith machines were used for the first time for decoding purposes. These machines were employed essentially for the statistical handling of incoming radio messages for finding identical passages, for filtering out unwanted data, etc. This led not only to savings in the number of statisticians, who would otherwise have been required, but also to much less time being needed for such operations. The development and use of an electronic decoding machine-an electronic brain-that had been envisaged for decoding purposes, could not be realized during the war. (Bonatz 1970)

This quotation will be called to mind elsewhere in this article to demonstrate the contemptuous, not to say denigratory, attitude of the German government of the time toward scientific research.

That information is not correct. In 1942 all the German codebreaking departments used punch card equipment, including the Dehomag D-11 an advanced design for that era. I think that some must have been using IBM/Dehomag equipment earlier.

In addition during the war several types of special cryptanalytic devices were built and used against specific enemy codes. At the end of the war some advanced designs that were designed but not built were comparable or superior to ones built by the US cryptologic agencies as mentioned in ‘European Axis Signal Intelligence in World War II’ vol2.

[Michate]

Analog computers resemble the things we call computers today in name only.
They are simply speaking elaborate slide rules, good in arithmetics but terrible in logic, of no use for sorting or text comparison.
So the German advancements in analog computing were useless in code breaking, and even useless as a precursor for digital computers.

As a sidenote, during the war Konrad Zuse developed the first digital computers as well (shortly after the war he developed the first high level computer language as well). They weren't used for code breaking pruposes, however.

[wm]

Zuse was a truly remarkable man, especially he was a hydraulic engineer (dams, canals, levees). He is an inventor of the digital computer (he worked in ignorance of earlier achievements, even of Babbage's), and he created the world's first commercial digital computer.
His only failing was he had no money, and the German government was very consistent in dealings with him. They didn't support him before, during and after the war. With proper financing Germany could have had nice computers early in the war.

[Kemula]

As a sidenote, during the war Konrad Zuse developed the first digital computers as well (shortly after the war he developed the first high level computer language as well). They weren't used for code breaking pruposes, however.

Konrad Zuse was a great german Computer Freak.

Konrad Zuse erfand vor mehr einhundert Jahren eine Maschine, mit der Rechenoperationen mittels einer ausgeklügelten Mechanik berechnet werden konnten. Damit gelang ihm der Durchbruch zu einer automatisierten Technik.

Grüße

Andi

[stg 44]

A friend was able to give me a copy of ‘Alwin Walther, IPM, and the Development of Calculator/Computer Technology in Germany, 1930-1945’. It is an interesting article and I assume the comment about codebreaking is from page 337:

A 1970 report says: In 1943, Hollerith machines were used for the first time for decoding purposes. These machines were employed essentially for the statistical handling of incoming radio messages for finding identical passages, for filtering out unwanted data, etc. This led not only to savings in the number of statisticians, who would otherwise have been required, but also to much less time being needed for such operations. The development and use of an electronic decoding machine-an electronic brain-that had been envisaged for decoding purposes, could not be realized during the war. (Bonatz 1970)

This quotation will be called to mind elsewhere in this article to demonstrate the contemptuous, not to say denigratory, attitude of the German government of the time toward scientific research.

That information is not correct. In 1942 all the German codebreaking departments used punch card equipment, including the Dehomag D-11 an advanced design for that era. I think that some must have been using IBM/Dehomag equipment earlier.

In addition during the war several types of special cryptanalytic devices were built and used against specific enemy codes. At the end of the war some advanced designs that were designed but not built were comparable or superior to ones built by the US cryptologic agencies as mentioned in ‘European Axis Signal Intelligence in World War II’ vol2.

Why did the Germans have such lack of success in breaking allied codes? I'm well aware that they had some serious notable successes, but take B-Dienst and the convoy codes; AFAIK after 1941 they were shut out of convoy communications.

[paspartoo]

A friend was able to give me a copy of ‘Alwin Walther, IPM, and the Development of Calculator/Computer Technology in Germany, 1930-1945’. It is an interesting article and I assume the comment about codebreaking is from page 337:

A 1970 report says: In 1943, Hollerith machines were used for the first time for decoding purposes. These machines were employed essentially for the statistical handling of incoming radio messages for finding identical passages, for filtering out unwanted data, etc. This led not only to savings in the number of statisticians, who would otherwise have been required, but also to much less time being needed for such operations. The development and use of an electronic decoding machine-an electronic brain-that had been envisaged for decoding purposes, could not be realized during the war. (Bonatz 1970)

This quotation will be called to mind elsewhere in this article to demonstrate the contemptuous, not to say denigratory, attitude of the German government of the time toward scientific research.

That information is not correct. In 1942 all the German codebreaking departments used punch card equipment, including the Dehomag D-11 an advanced design for that era. I think that some must have been using IBM/Dehomag equipment earlier.

In addition during the war several types of special cryptanalytic devices were built and used against specific enemy codes. At the end of the war some advanced designs that were designed but not built were comparable or superior to ones built by the US cryptologic agencies as mentioned in ‘European Axis Signal Intelligence in World War II’ vol2.

Why did the Germans have such lack of success in breaking allied codes? I'm well aware that they had some serious notable successes, but take B-Dienst and the convoy codes; AFAIK after 1941 they were shut out of convoy communications.

Oh boy! I’m afraid you are completely mistaken in your opinion.

Try here:

http://chris-intel-corner.blogspot.gr/

[stg 44]

[
Oh boy! I’m afraid you are completely mistaken in your opinion.

Try here:

http://chris-intel-corner.blogspot.gr/

Yeah, I was very misinformed about what was going on. Thanks for all the excellent info.

[paspartoo]

I said in a previous post: ‘That information is not correct. In 1942 all the German codebreaking departments used punch card equipment, including the Dehomag D-11 an advanced design for that era. I think that some must have been using IBM/Dehomag equipment earlier’
I can confirm that in 1941 the Army’s codebreaking department used Hollerith/IBM equipment. This is mentioned in the war diary of Inspectorate 7/VI.

[gambadier]

There was a series of articles on Zuse's work published about 30 years ago in a UK computing magazine.