Communications Security question.

Discussions on the Allies and the Neutral States in general and the countries that does not have sections of their own.
Post Reply
Delta Tank
Member
Posts: 2512
Joined: 16 Aug 2004, 02:51
Location: Pennsylvania

Communications Security question.

#1

Post by Delta Tank » 09 May 2014, 22:11

To all,

I am reading this book, Second Front Now 1942, An Opportunity Delayed by Walter Scott Dunn Jr.and on page 46 I read this:
"At the same time, the Germans had cracked the British naval codes and were reading the Admiralty messages, so that each side jockeyed its ships across the Atlantic like a gigantic chess game, each trying to react to decoded information in such a manner that the other would not know that its messages were being deciphered." (footnote 12, Fred W. Winterbotham, The Ultra Secret (New York: Dell, 1974) pp. 126-27
On page 191:
"The Germans also penetrated the scrambler telephone that Roosevelt and Churchill used. The scrambler telephone was invented in 1939 and was first used by Roosevelt in September. By March 1, 1942, the Germans had discovered a method of unscrambling the conversations and were tapping the transatlantic telephone cable. On March 6, 1942, Hitler was informed that all telephone traffic between Britain and the United States was being deciphered. . . "
Is this true? I don't believe I have every read this before, not a big reader of intelligence operations and counter intelligence operations, but I would of thought that I would of read this in another book on World War II.

Mike

User avatar
phylo_roadking
Member
Posts: 17488
Joined: 01 May 2006, 00:31
Location: Belfast

Re: Communications Security question.

#2

Post by phylo_roadking » 09 May 2014, 22:43

Hi Mike - what time frame does THIS refer to?
"At the same time, the Germans had cracked the British naval codes and were reading the Admiralty messages, so that each side jockeyed its ships across the Atlantic like a gigantic chess game, each trying to react to decoded information in such a manner that the other would not know that its messages were being deciphered."
Certainly they were reading Admiralty wireless traffic from Spetember 1939 until the British became aware in, I think, August 1940, when they realised and changed codes.
"The Germans also penetrated the scrambler telephone that Roosevelt and Churchill used. The scrambler telephone was invented in 1939 and was first used by Roosevelt in September. By March 1, 1942, the Germans had discovered a method of unscrambling the conversations and were tapping the transatlantic telephone cable. On March 6, 1942, Hitler was informed that all telephone traffic between Britain and the United States was being deciphered. . . "
Is this true?
Yes; but there were concerns over the system any because of the threat it could be tapped and the traffic unscrambled anyway....so there was a female telephone operator sat in on the telephone conversations and was supposed to...and did!...interrupt Winston and FDR in full flow if they became too specific about things; otherwise, they became adept at using euphemisms and codewords ;)
Twenty years ago we had Johnny Cash, Bob Hope and Steve Jobs. Now we have no Cash, no Hope and no Jobs....
Lord, please keep Kevin Bacon alive...


User avatar
Takao
Member
Posts: 3776
Joined: 10 Mar 2002, 20:27
Location: Reading, Pa

Re: Communications Security question.

#3

Post by Takao » 11 May 2014, 02:44

Correct me if I am wrong, but were not long-distance (trans-atlantic & trans-pacific) telephone calls conducted via radiotelephone, and not using the submarine cable systems...

So, the Germans had not "tapped" any cable, but were simply intercepting Allied radio communications.

Seems to me that Mr. Dunn did not conduct enough research into this matter.

paspartoo
Member
Posts: 835
Joined: 07 Feb 2009, 14:35
Contact:

Re: Communications Security question.

#4

Post by paspartoo » 11 May 2014, 10:24

Delta Tank wrote:To all,

I am reading this book, Second Front Now 1942, An Opportunity Delayed by Walter Scott Dunn Jr.and on page 46 I read this:
"At the same time, the Germans had cracked the British naval codes and were reading the Admiralty messages, so that each side jockeyed its ships across the Atlantic like a gigantic chess game, each trying to react to decoded information in such a manner that the other would not know that its messages were being deciphered." (footnote 12, Fred W. Winterbotham, The Ultra Secret (New York: Dell, 1974) pp. 126-27
On page 191:
"The Germans also penetrated the scrambler telephone that Roosevelt and Churchill used. The scrambler telephone was invented in 1939 and was first used by Roosevelt in September. By March 1, 1942, the Germans had discovered a method of unscrambling the conversations and were tapping the transatlantic telephone cable. On March 6, 1942, Hitler was informed that all telephone traffic between Britain and the United States was being deciphered. . . "
Is this true? I don't believe I have every read this before, not a big reader of intelligence operations and counter intelligence operations, but I would of thought that I would of read this in another book on World War II.

Mike
http://chris-intel-corner.blogspot.gr/2 ... on-of.html

http://chris-intel-corner.blogspot.gr/2 ... abs-3.html

How did you miss these cases? They are/should be mentioned in any serious history book. They were widely known even when David Kahn wrote his first book.
A simple economist with an unhealthy interest in military and intelligence history.....
http://chris-intel-corner.blogspot.com/

Delta Tank
Member
Posts: 2512
Joined: 16 Aug 2004, 02:51
Location: Pennsylvania

Re: Communications Security question.

#5

Post by Delta Tank » 11 May 2014, 18:17

Paspartoo,

The articles you cite were written/published in 2012, the book was printed in 2009. I did not write the book and as I stated I don't read books on intelligence operations or counterintelligence operations, even though I own a few.

Mike

paspartoo
Member
Posts: 835
Joined: 07 Feb 2009, 14:35
Contact:

Re: Communications Security question.

#6

Post by paspartoo » 11 May 2014, 19:53

Delta Tank wrote:Paspartoo,

The articles you cite were written/published in 2012, the book was printed in 2009. I did not write the book and as I stated I don't read books on intelligence operations or counterintelligence operations, even though I own a few.

Mike
Kahn’s first book came out in the 1960’s and ‘Hitler’s spies’ in the 1970’s. In theory any serious history of WWII should cover these cases or at least mention them in general terms.
A simple economist with an unhealthy interest in military and intelligence history.....
http://chris-intel-corner.blogspot.com/

Post Reply

Return to “The Allies and the Neutral States in general”