► Photothread: Wood gas generators
Re: Wood gas vehicles: firewood in the fuel tank
My difficulty is with the layout, there seeming to be no feed pipes from the boiler to the cylinders, only the apparent fixtures of a standard wood-gas producer of the Imbert kind. Given the inherent dangers of high pressure steam these would, needs must, be of a robust nature. There is no evidence of such cumbersome plumbing. I guess the heavy casing below the bumper is not serving the purpose that apparently identical receptacles serve in a gas producer system, that being to allow precipitate matter to be removed prior to cooling the gas, thence to filtration and on to the engine as fuel. The steam system is to a great extent the reverse of this process, in that it requires the steam to be just that in order to force the cylinders to reciprocate. The condenser, or radiator, then cools the gas, the resulting water feeding back to a header or straight to the boiler, and so on. The only obvious pipework visible in the photo is the flimsy tubing laid over the roof of the vehicle, as pointed out by Markus.
If, at the time, German industry had been developing steam lorries there must be some supporting paperwork, but none has been mentioned. To produce such a steamer is not a "bolt on" solution in the same way that a wood gas producer is, it requires a great deal of specialised engineering, I just cannot, without serious evidence, believe that that is what this is. It may not be Imbert, the cooler may be of a heavier nature, but, for my money, it is a holzvergaser.
Kerry.
If, at the time, German industry had been developing steam lorries there must be some supporting paperwork, but none has been mentioned. To produce such a steamer is not a "bolt on" solution in the same way that a wood gas producer is, it requires a great deal of specialised engineering, I just cannot, without serious evidence, believe that that is what this is. It may not be Imbert, the cooler may be of a heavier nature, but, for my money, it is a holzvergaser.
Kerry.
Re: Wood gas vehicles: firewood in the fuel tank
E.g. according to http://okhistoria.se/agerande-i-kristid ... er-kriget/ the Swedish motorist could choose between over 500 gas generator models so ID'ing the one on the Ford might be a tad difficult (even assuming it was no DIY project).
Returning briefly to my EGR theory does the position of the overroof piping's exit from the bonnet coincide with a Ford exhaust manifold?
Markus
Returning briefly to my EGR theory does the position of the overroof piping's exit from the bonnet coincide with a Ford exhaust manifold?
Markus
-
- Member
- Posts: 6341
- Joined: 09 Jan 2004, 00:22
- Location: Georgia USA
Re: Wood gas vehicles: firewood in the fuel tank
Hi Mates:
Thanks for all your input and the mystery is now solved.
Another chap on the original forum came up with a possible name and I chased that for a day and a half and got a good part of the answer.
The vehicle is called "Butenuth Dampfauto". One of four constructed in ca. 1945-1948. All on Ford chassis.
Herr Butenuth was an engineer by trade and did a lot of work with Hanomag including being awarded the dealership for Berlin up until the beginning of the war.
Apparently he got some connection late in the war years with Ford. Together with another engineer, A. Simon, a concept was developed for a coke/coal fueled steam powerplant for trucks. As I understand it from my research (translation problems) it had a Ford motor converted to coke/coal that powered a 4 cyl boxer 2 stroke steam engine. Sounds odd to me but that is what the translation came up with. I gather the vehicles were produced by a company called Lenz & Butenuth.
Apparently, the concept was not a success and after 4 vehicles it was terminated.
Later, Herr Butenuth started a small company that produced something called "Econom", a truck variant. That was not successful either and he was awarded a Ford dealership in Berlin around 1954 or so.
Below are two more photos, a lot clearer ones. Thanks again for your help.
Bill
Thanks for all your input and the mystery is now solved.
Another chap on the original forum came up with a possible name and I chased that for a day and a half and got a good part of the answer.
The vehicle is called "Butenuth Dampfauto". One of four constructed in ca. 1945-1948. All on Ford chassis.
Herr Butenuth was an engineer by trade and did a lot of work with Hanomag including being awarded the dealership for Berlin up until the beginning of the war.
Apparently he got some connection late in the war years with Ford. Together with another engineer, A. Simon, a concept was developed for a coke/coal fueled steam powerplant for trucks. As I understand it from my research (translation problems) it had a Ford motor converted to coke/coal that powered a 4 cyl boxer 2 stroke steam engine. Sounds odd to me but that is what the translation came up with. I gather the vehicles were produced by a company called Lenz & Butenuth.
Apparently, the concept was not a success and after 4 vehicles it was terminated.
Later, Herr Butenuth started a small company that produced something called "Econom", a truck variant. That was not successful either and he was awarded a Ford dealership in Berlin around 1954 or so.
Below are two more photos, a lot clearer ones. Thanks again for your help.
Bill
Re: Wood gas vehicles: firewood in the fuel tank
Hi Bill,
That's much more exotic I expected.
In that case I guess a coal bunker and boiler behind the cab, steam condenser up front and condensate tank below it.
Markus
That's much more exotic I expected.
In that case I guess a coal bunker and boiler behind the cab, steam condenser up front and condensate tank below it.
Markus
-
- Member
- Posts: 6341
- Joined: 09 Jan 2004, 00:22
- Location: Georgia USA
- Maxschnauzer
- Financial supporter
- Posts: 6000
- Joined: 24 Jan 2014, 08:36
- Location: Philippines
Re: Wood gas vehicles: firewood in the fuel tank
Bravo Zulu for all the sound research, Bill and others. That certainly is a new one on me.
Cheers,
Max
Max
Re: Wood gas vehicles: firewood in the fuel tank
Hi Mates!
This is what Wikipedia says:
"Nach 1945 entwickelte der Diplomingenieur A. Simon in Berlin einen Lastwagen mit Vierzylinder-Boxermotor, der Dampfkessel, der mit Kohle befeuert wurde, war darüber angeordnet. Von der Firma Lenz und Butenuth in Berlin wurden von 1945 bis 1949 vier Versuchsfahrzeuge gebaut, darunter ein Ford BB. Als Antrieb diente ein umgebauter Ford-Motor."
Is it possible only the BB was with "reworked Ford engine" and the rest 3 were with that 4-cylinder boxer? Or vice-versa? Mysteries, mysteries all around...
Form Wikipedia again, the article on Hellmuth Butenuth:
Während des Zweiten Weltkrieges rüstete Butenuth Nutzfahrzeuge von Ford mit Dampfmotoren aus. Nach dem Krieg führte er diese Entwicklung in der 1946 gegründeten Berliner Dampfmotoren Gesellschaft fort, die bis 1952 bestand. Der von Butenuth eingesetzte Motor war ein Zweitakt-Dampfmotor, der sich mit Koks oder Steinkohle befeuern ließ.
Cheers!
Edit: Something just came to me. Is it possible the trucks were with BOTH engines? A sort of dual drive, I mean the boxer was pure steam engine and the Ford engine was reworked to work with coal gas? And they were used depending of the road, load, etc. conditions? Well, I agree it sounds almost pointless but everything is possible.
This is what Wikipedia says:
"Nach 1945 entwickelte der Diplomingenieur A. Simon in Berlin einen Lastwagen mit Vierzylinder-Boxermotor, der Dampfkessel, der mit Kohle befeuert wurde, war darüber angeordnet. Von der Firma Lenz und Butenuth in Berlin wurden von 1945 bis 1949 vier Versuchsfahrzeuge gebaut, darunter ein Ford BB. Als Antrieb diente ein umgebauter Ford-Motor."
Is it possible only the BB was with "reworked Ford engine" and the rest 3 were with that 4-cylinder boxer? Or vice-versa? Mysteries, mysteries all around...
Form Wikipedia again, the article on Hellmuth Butenuth:
Während des Zweiten Weltkrieges rüstete Butenuth Nutzfahrzeuge von Ford mit Dampfmotoren aus. Nach dem Krieg führte er diese Entwicklung in der 1946 gegründeten Berliner Dampfmotoren Gesellschaft fort, die bis 1952 bestand. Der von Butenuth eingesetzte Motor war ein Zweitakt-Dampfmotor, der sich mit Koks oder Steinkohle befeuern ließ.
Cheers!
Edit: Something just came to me. Is it possible the trucks were with BOTH engines? A sort of dual drive, I mean the boxer was pure steam engine and the Ford engine was reworked to work with coal gas? And they were used depending of the road, load, etc. conditions? Well, I agree it sounds almost pointless but everything is possible.
"...and on the 8th day He made truck so that man, made on 7th day, had shelter when woman threw him out for the night."
Re: Wood gas vehicles: firewood in the fuel tank
Fantastic work Bill. I eat every one of my words, it is stranger, as said, than any of us thought. I suppose it was an attempt to beat a post-war fuel shortage.
Kerry.
Kerry.
Re: Wood gas vehicles: firewood in the fuel tank
Maybe the boxer reference has something to do with the Demag connection:
https://www.google.fi/url?sa=t&rct=j&q= ... HQ&cad=rja
In a Ford conversion boxer configuration appears to make little sense.
Markus
https://www.google.fi/url?sa=t&rct=j&q= ... HQ&cad=rja
In a Ford conversion boxer configuration appears to make little sense.
Markus
-
- Member
- Posts: 6341
- Joined: 09 Jan 2004, 00:22
- Location: Georgia USA
Re: Wood gas vehicles: firewood in the fuel tank
Hi All:
Again, thanks for all your assistance.
Here are a few more tidbits about Herr Butenuth:
In 1922-23, he developed a micro tandem seat three wheeler called the Bufag. I have found no photos yet.
Apparently his work with Hanomag overtook this endeavour and he got the Hanomag dealership in Berlin several years later.
He also owned the coachwork company called Papler for a time and I am looking into this.
I am not sure when he took over the Ford dealership in Berlin but assume it was after the war. I have followed that dealership up until 1990 when he passed away.
To return to the Dampfauto, it gets confusing again. Some references such as in Ilfil's post say the company that produced the four prototypes was called Lenz und Butenuth. Others refer to a company called Berliner Dampfmotorengesellschaft (BDG) that was to sell the vehicles if they reached production.
In any case, apparently that company/those companies, were in the Russian zone of Berlin and the Russians confiscated the factory equipment and shipped it to Leningrad in about 1947.
I still have not determined which engine did which job, nor really what engines they were and will continue to pursue that.
Further, I have only found the three photos already posted which seem to be the same vehicle and will pursue the other two.
Mention has been made in several places that a Ford BB model was involved but I do not know if that was the chassis or just the engine.
I gather he by then had the Ford franchise in what must have been West Berlin.
He then formed a company called Econom and as mentioned earlier they built trucks. New information is that 1,000 trucks were built almost all for municipal use.
After that venture failed, he manufactured microcars again. This one was called the Teddy and I presently have no further information.
As and when I find more information, I will post it here.
Bill
Bufag. This was a remarkable little machine of which only a prototype ever existed, for the factory which was supposed to build it, was bought by Hanomag in order to build the ´Kommissbrot´ (see the essay on Hanomag). It was designed by Helmuth Buthenuth while he was a student at the Technical University of Hannover. The machine was a plywood- creation for 2 people formed according to the Rumpler principle, that is to say, it was shaped like a ´drop´. Power was supplied by a 500-cc 2-stroke twin. The vehicle had 2 wheels up front and the single rear wheel was the one driven by the engine. The vehicle was displayed at the Berlin auto Show of 1923 and received very favorable reviews. Herr Buthenuth was designated the Hanomag dealer for Berlin, then a really lucrative as well as prestigious position. During WW-2 he was engaged in research work on power-generators and steam engines. In the 1980´s he was the largest Ford Dealer in Berlin. Herr Buthenuth, a real success story starting in the disastrous Weimar Revoltic.
Again, thanks for all your assistance.
Here are a few more tidbits about Herr Butenuth:
In 1922-23, he developed a micro tandem seat three wheeler called the Bufag. I have found no photos yet.
Apparently his work with Hanomag overtook this endeavour and he got the Hanomag dealership in Berlin several years later.
He also owned the coachwork company called Papler for a time and I am looking into this.
I am not sure when he took over the Ford dealership in Berlin but assume it was after the war. I have followed that dealership up until 1990 when he passed away.
To return to the Dampfauto, it gets confusing again. Some references such as in Ilfil's post say the company that produced the four prototypes was called Lenz und Butenuth. Others refer to a company called Berliner Dampfmotorengesellschaft (BDG) that was to sell the vehicles if they reached production.
In any case, apparently that company/those companies, were in the Russian zone of Berlin and the Russians confiscated the factory equipment and shipped it to Leningrad in about 1947.
I still have not determined which engine did which job, nor really what engines they were and will continue to pursue that.
Further, I have only found the three photos already posted which seem to be the same vehicle and will pursue the other two.
Mention has been made in several places that a Ford BB model was involved but I do not know if that was the chassis or just the engine.
I gather he by then had the Ford franchise in what must have been West Berlin.
He then formed a company called Econom and as mentioned earlier they built trucks. New information is that 1,000 trucks were built almost all for municipal use.
After that venture failed, he manufactured microcars again. This one was called the Teddy and I presently have no further information.
As and when I find more information, I will post it here.
Bill
Bufag. This was a remarkable little machine of which only a prototype ever existed, for the factory which was supposed to build it, was bought by Hanomag in order to build the ´Kommissbrot´ (see the essay on Hanomag). It was designed by Helmuth Buthenuth while he was a student at the Technical University of Hannover. The machine was a plywood- creation for 2 people formed according to the Rumpler principle, that is to say, it was shaped like a ´drop´. Power was supplied by a 500-cc 2-stroke twin. The vehicle had 2 wheels up front and the single rear wheel was the one driven by the engine. The vehicle was displayed at the Berlin auto Show of 1923 and received very favorable reviews. Herr Buthenuth was designated the Hanomag dealer for Berlin, then a really lucrative as well as prestigious position. During WW-2 he was engaged in research work on power-generators and steam engines. In the 1980´s he was the largest Ford Dealer in Berlin. Herr Buthenuth, a real success story starting in the disastrous Weimar Revoltic.
- Helmut0815
- Member
- Posts: 919
- Joined: 19 Sep 2010, 14:13
- Location: Lower Saxony, Germany
Re: Wood gas vehicles: firewood in the fuel tank
Bufag was not the name of the vehicle in question but the brand of the Butenuth-Fahrzeugwerke AG. The model name of the three wheeler was "Troll".Bill Murray wrote:Here are a few more tidbits about Herr Butenuth:
In 1922-23, he developed a micro tandem seat three wheeler called the Bufag.
regards
Helmut
-
- Member
- Posts: 6341
- Joined: 09 Jan 2004, 00:22
- Location: Georgia USA
Re: Wood gas vehicles: firewood in the fuel tank
Thank you very much for the correction, Helmut.
Do you happen to have a photo of a Troll car you could post here so I can add that information to my little story of Herr Butenuth?
Bill
Do you happen to have a photo of a Troll car you could post here so I can add that information to my little story of Herr Butenuth?
Bill
- Maxschnauzer
- Financial supporter
- Posts: 6000
- Joined: 24 Jan 2014, 08:36
- Location: Philippines
Re: Wood gas vehicles: firewood in the fuel tank
Another passing reference to a Ford BB here (Google translation): http://www.fomcc.de/bb.htm
For use with "domestic fuel" came shortly before the outbreak of war is often a wood gas generator for use. The regional or right next to the Cologne factory premises Company Imbert anxious the renovation.
The Berliner Ford representatives Hellmuth Butenuth constructed 1946-49 four whose converted two-stroke steam-Ford engines could be operated with coke or coal steam trucks, including at least one Ford BB. After the war he led this trend continued in 1946, founded the "Berliner steam engines society" to 1952nd After the currency reform Butenuth founded 1948 in Spandau the company Econom. The construction of the plant in Haselhorst was supported with funds from the Marshall Plan. The aim of the company was the production of inexpensive trucks to clearing rubble with high tensile strength. The company's production rose from an initial one to two cars per month to twelve per month in the year 1952nd In the following period of the economic miracle Butenuths could no longer compete with the mass producers and so concluded Butenuth 1954 Company Company. Ultimately operation Butenuth a Ford dealership in Berlin-Spandau.
Cheers,
Max
Max
- Maxschnauzer
- Financial supporter
- Posts: 6000
- Joined: 24 Jan 2014, 08:36
- Location: Philippines
Re: Wood gas vehicles: firewood in the fuel tank
Several more photos of the Econom "Teddy" microcar here at http://www.allcarindex.com/auto-car-mod ... nom-Teddy/.
Cheers,
Max
Max
Re: Wood gas vehicles: firewood in the fuel tank
Hi,
here a pic of a Saurer truck with woodgas producer. Could it be a post-war pic? Thanks in advance for any reply. (source of the pic: an expired ebay auction).
Regards
Bert
here a pic of a Saurer truck with woodgas producer. Could it be a post-war pic? Thanks in advance for any reply. (source of the pic: an expired ebay auction).
Regards
Bert
- Attachments
-
- Saurer gas.png (213.13 KiB) Viewed 845 times