Axis History Forum

This is an apolitical forum for discussions on the Axis nations, as well as the First and Second World Wars in general hosted by Marcus Wendel's Axis History Factbook in cooperation with Michael Miller's Axis Biographical Research, Christoph Awender's WW2 day by day, Dan Reinbold's Das Reich and Christian Ankerstjerne's Panzerworld.

Skip to content

Forgotten Soldier

Discussions on reference material on the WW1, Inter-War or WW2 as well as the authors.
Buy your books through the AHF Bookstore and support the forum while shopping!

Forgotten Soldier

Postby mike262752 on 05 Apr 2002 07:55

Has anyone read this book by Guy Sajer? I have heard some people say its fake because some minor mistakes, like when he said his gross deutschland arm band was on the left sleeve. I dont think that little mistake means anything. I liked the book.

I've also just started on Through Hell for Hitler, its not that long, I should be done with it pretty soon, it seems good so far though.

mike
User avatar
mike262752
Member
United States
 
Posts: 140
Joined: 13 Mar 2002 10:35
Location: California, USA

entertaining book

Postby timoa on 05 Apr 2002 12:57

i thought the book was excellent. at least his experiences sound very true. i mean who cares if he mentioned the wrong armsleeve? i think i could easily forget in 20 years in which arm i wore my patches in army.

anyway very good reading if you are interested in personal experiences

timo
User avatar
timoa
Member
International
 
Posts: 64
Joined: 13 Mar 2002 15:58
Location: helsinki

i liked it

Postby rkoy on 05 Apr 2002 15:24

it was good entertaining reading him and all of sven hassels books along the same line war-fiction based on factual participation!
rkoy
Member
United States
 
Posts: 171
Joined: 16 Mar 2002 23:07
Location: Angleton Texas USA

rkoy

Postby timoa on 05 Apr 2002 15:56

it was good entertaining reading him and all of sven hassels books along the same line war-fiction based on factual participation!


eh?
User avatar
timoa
Member
International
 
Posts: 64
Joined: 13 Mar 2002 15:58
Location: helsinki

The Forgotten Soldie

Postby admfisher on 05 Apr 2002 18:35

5 years ago we debated this very topic on another board.

Guy Sajer was supposed to come out in France and give an interview but I dont know if he did.

Once again I will mention Von Lucks Panzer Commander. In his book he states that before attacking France with the 7th Pz Dv. they were issued MkIII tanks with the new 5 cm gun.

This is only one error he makes, as there were no 5cm Mk III's in the start of the invasion.

The Forgotten Soldier has errors but, if you put everything aside Guy gives a remarkably good picture of a soldiers life.
User avatar
admfisher
Member
Canada
 
Posts: 618
Joined: 30 Mar 2002 01:38
Location: Toronto

The Book

Postby Trooper on 05 Apr 2002 20:03

Think about writing a book. Say about your own life...then try and put exact dates to those memoires. Now expand that to a topic, that involves places, names, dates, times, colors, weather, ...all under the threat of gunfire. Then write that book 30 - 50 years later and expect it to contain all fact, nad be accurate. Highly unlikely. I think Guy's book is sincere and as honestly to the point as it could have been. The same goes for Von Luck. Just my thoughts, for I have tried writing a book about my military career and gave up for the most part in lack accurate memories.
Sepp :roll:
"Prior Proper Planning, Prevents Piss Poor Performance, Period"-------called the 8 P's
Trooper
Member
United States
 
Posts: 24
Joined: 13 Mar 2002 17:11
Location: Buffalo, NY USA

Postby Robert Zeller on 06 Apr 2002 00:39

yea, I think Trooper had a good point there.
That would be hard.
Robert Zeller
Member
United States
 
Posts: 51
Joined: 13 Mar 2002 00:37
Location: America

Postby rob on 06 Apr 2002 00:46

the Forgotten Soldier is my favorite book period. To my mind it stands head and shoulders above any other war book in terms of telling a story. Read it by all means.
rob
Member
United States
 
Posts: 90
Joined: 01 Apr 2002 05:00
Location: california,usa

forgotten soldier

Postby pdhinkle36ID on 06 Apr 2002 01:19

We covered this one on the old forum, and trooper said it right.
pdhinkle36ID
Member
United States
 
Posts: 74
Joined: 19 Mar 2002 00:58
Location: USA

Postby mike262752 on 06 Apr 2002 07:18

I also think its ridiculous that some think it was fake. I have only heard that from a few people though. So I dont think too many people think the way they do. Its one of favorite, number 1 or 2 without a doubt.
User avatar
mike262752
Member
United States
 
Posts: 140
Joined: 13 Mar 2002 10:35
Location: California, USA

Postby Ebusitanus on 06 Apr 2002 14:12

Here some links

http://www.militaria.com/sajer.html

Thats his real photo compared to the SS soldier that normally shows on the Softcover version I have.

Image
User avatar
Ebusitanus
Member
United States
 
Posts: 438
Joined: 12 Mar 2002 18:12

Postby Marcus Wendel on 06 Apr 2002 14:21

User avatar
Marcus Wendel
Forum Staff
Sweden
 
Posts: 23088
Joined: 08 Mar 2002 22:35
Location: Sweden

Re: Forgotten Soldier

Postby B Hellqvist on 27 Jul 2008 01:58

I’m reading the newly published Swedish translation of “The Forgotten Soldier”. I read the English translation a few years ago, and came to the conclusion that the book was an authentic story. Since then, I’ve read plenty of books and learned more about the war. This time, I’m checking (almost) every fact that looks questionable. I’ve finished the first third of the book, ending with Sajer returning to the front after his leave in Berlin. This far, I’ve found the book only slightly more reliable than a Sven Hassel book, but while Sajer could have experienced most of the things he describes in the first four chapters, it is obvious that the chronology is off and the text riddled with factual errors. I’m not about to condemn the book as a fake; in many ways, it is in the style of authors like Siegfried Sassoon, Erich Maria Remarque and Willi Heinrich, but the first four chapters cannot be a truthful description of events. Perhaps from a psychological and emotional point of view, but not a factual one.

I served as a conscripted corporal in the headquarters of a rifle company in the Swedish Army in 1986-87, and recognize the ordinary rifleman’s sense of disorientation – I saw frequent evidence of that. Only the officers and usually the HQ troop have any idea of the geography and what was happening around the company. I also seriously doubt that more than a handful of the soldiers in my company knew the composition and equipment of our battalion, much less our brigade, even just a few years afterwards. Thus, I can understand why a soldier like Sajer frequently gets dates, names and locations wrong. Soldiers weren’t allowed to keep diaries, and few memoirs and autobiographies are as meticulously researched as e.g. Gottlob Biedermann’s “In Deadly Combat”.

As the page numbers don’t correspond between the English and Swedish editions, I’ve chosen to break down my remarks chapter by chapter. I’ve dropped some minor remarks, and have kept some that might strengthen Sajer’s case.


Prologue

The question of his age and the Luftwaffe controversy is an old chestnut. Here’s my take. Sajer is usually said to have been born 13 January 1927, which would’ve made him 15½ years old when he volunteered for Wehrmacht service. Clearly improbable. Even the alternative year of birth, 1926, would have made him too young. In an interview, he said that he was 16 years old when Germany invaded France, which would make him 18½ years old in the summer of 1942, and thus able to volunteer, as well as having served a stint in the RAD. My theory is that he made himself younger in the book in order to be able to explain his enlistment as a mistake made by a boy.

The Swedish translation doesn’t mention Hans-Ulrich Rudel; does anyone know what the original (French) text says? As no Stuka unit or flight school was stationed in Chemnitz, it seems like it is a case of wishful thinking. Sajer might have applied for service in the Luftwaffe, an option open to volunteers, but as he wasn’t approved, he might have ended up in the Kraftfahr-Ausbildungs-Abteilung 4 d. Luftwaffe in Chemnitz, which might also explain why he was picked for similar training in the army.

The ghetto in Warsaw is referred to as if it wasn’t around anymore; in fact, there were still seven months left until the uprising that eventually led to the destruction of it.

There’s no castle corresponding to the description within 10 miles/15 km of Bialystok, but there’s a castle of unknown size in Knyszyn, 28 km from the city. ”Kremenstovsk” isn’t a Polish name; there’s a village named Krzeczkowo within reasonable range from Knyszyn.


Chapter 1

There’s mention of Sajer’s uncle, serving in the besieged 6th Army in Stalingrad. According to German records, an Anton Sajer is listed as missing in Stalingrad since 1 January 1943.

Sajer’s description of the transport to Stalingrad doesn’t ring true. Why should a transport column in Army Group Center try to reach units in Army Group South? Then there’s the whole thing with the “19th Kompanie Rollbahn” and all that, like the “Panzerdivision Stülpnagel”…


Chapter 2

The weapons problem. This chapter mentions artillery like ”77s” and ”107s”, as well as “Alpenberg” light tanks. This shouldn’t be taken as evidence that Sajer’s making things up. I’ve seen reliable memoirs with dodgy facts, like Günther Koschorrek’s “Blood Red Snow”, where Soviet soldiers wield “Kalashnikovs”. For a soldier with a marked disinterest in military hardware like Sajer, such mistakes can be understandable.

The transport problem. Again, the description doesn’t ring true. Why should a transport company trudge through the snow for more than two weeks just to supply a single frontline platoon? Wouldn’t it be more logical to have a supply route that was shorter (like 2-4 days travel at most in wintertime), delivering the supplies to the regimental or battalion quartermaster? Even taking into account that Sajer might have known next to nothing of the SOP, the description leaves the attentive reader puzzled.

The unit problem. The transport arrives to the ”Ninth Infantry Regiment”. There was no such regiment; there was a 9th Grenadier Regiment outside Leningrad by that time. There’s also a reference to the “comrades in the 107th”; that might be the 107th Grenadier Regiment, which was south-east of Moscow.

The Don Front problem. At the beginning of the chapter, Sajer says that the time was around the end of February or beginning of March, 1943. The aforementioned transport takes almost three weeks. This plays havoc with the chronology in chapters 2 and 3. While events unfold more or less in the correct historical order, it is 3-4 weeks too late if the reader extrapolates the dates. Then, on page 133 in chapter 3, Sajer mentions that they had become part of the Third Battle of Kharkov, and the chronology snaps back in place.


Chapter 3

A German Army car called a "Steiner” appears. It has been suggested that Sajer meant a Steyr.

There are no records of a “Ernst Neubach” (or with a similar name) being killed, but Sajer probably changed the name out of respect for “Ernst’s” family.

Sajer encounters Francophone members of “the Walloon Division”. The only Walloon unit by this time was the Wallonisches-Infanterie Bataillon 373, which as far as I know wasn’t even at the front then.

Sajer and friends are saved by units from the 25th Panzer Division, commanded by Guderian. The division was stationed in Norway, and Guderian was Inspector-General of the Armoured Troops.

During the battle, Sajer sees Tiger tanks, as well as Panthers. The Panther made its debut at Kursk, several months later.


Chapter 4

”Henceforth, my identification would be Gefreiter Sajer, G. 100/1010 G4. Siebzehntes Bataillon, Leichtinfanterie Groβdeutschland Division, Süd, G.”
The problems with that paragraph have been amply discussed. Could ”100/1010 G4.” be a garbled Wehrnummer? ”Siebzehntes Bataillon” hasn’t been satisfactorily explained; could it be another name for the Feldersatz-Bataillon? And what does that “G” at the end stand for?

No Soviet “extermination camp” named Tomvos is known; could it be an urban myth that flourished among German soldiers?

Much has been made of the ”Groβdeutschland” cuff title, but it could be a simple mistake. The chapter contains more glaring inaccuracies which I haven’t seen mentioned before.

The problem with the bomb raids. Sajer experiences no less than three bomb raids during his leave. Strangely enough, I’ve found no mention of any raids on Magdeburg or Berlin during April 1943. The last raid he mentions numbers 1100 American and British bombers in a day raid. Notwithstanding that the Brits bombed during the nights, the total number of USAAF and RAF bombers was 972 at the beginning of March, 1943. That last raid claimed 22,000 lives according to Sajer, which can be compared with the 4000 killed during the entire “Battle of Berlin”, which took place between November 1943 and March 1944.

Checking authentic maps from the 1920-40 period, I haven’t found neither “Killeringstrasse” nor the “Oder bruke” [sic].

Sajer bemoans that he had nothing to eat. The SOP for soldiers on leave was that they got a ration card that was for the duration of the leave.

The Tempelhof airfield wasn’t used for military aircraft during the war (except for emergencies), so no Focke-Wulf 190’s could’ve been based there, much less any “Focke-Wulf 195”.

Before the end of his leave, Sajer and Paula watch the movie ”Immen See”. That should be “Immensee”, a movie that premiered in Berlin on 17 December, 1943, about eight months later.


There’s nothing that says that Sajer didn’t experience the Russian winter, the Third Battle of Kharkov, or air raids on Berlin, and he has been candid enough to say in interviews that he didn’t intend to write a chronicle, but as I hope that I’ve demonstrated, the Prologue and chapters 1-4 contain enough errors and dodgy facts to question the veracity of that part of the book.
Last edited by B Hellqvist on 27 Jul 2008 10:54, edited 1 time in total.
User avatar
B Hellqvist
Member
Sweden
 
Posts: 481
Joined: 29 Apr 2004 00:45
Location: Sweden

Re: Forgotten Soldier

Postby B Hellqvist on 27 Jul 2008 10:22

Addendum: According to RAF, Berlin was bombed a couple of times by the end of March, 1943. Sajer could have experienced one of those raids, but the Magdeburg raid and the day raid on Berlin are still unexplained.
User avatar
B Hellqvist
Member
Sweden
 
Posts: 481
Joined: 29 Apr 2004 00:45
Location: Sweden

Re: Forgotten Soldier

Postby B Hellqvist on 28 Jul 2008 17:23

Chapter 5

The training for service in ”Groβdeutschland” (GD) is said to have started in the beginning of July. Considering that Operation Zitadelle started on July 5, this messes up the chronology (again). It can hardly be due to a translation error, as June is “Juin” in French, while July is “Juillet”.

The soldiers are instructed in the use of the Panzerfaust, which makes it an anachronism. The ”Faustpatrone klein”, as the weapon was known as by that time, was still in development; 3000 units were ordered in July 1943 for field trials, and the weapon wasn’t issued to field units until September that year.

Sajer compounds the problems with the chronology further when he writes “toward the middle of July, only a few days before the battle of Belgorod” (page 207). By the middle of July, GD had been in combat for almost two weeks (Operation Zitadelle), and had been relieved on the 18th. Belgorod was firmly in German hands until 5 August, when the Soviets took the city. By then, GD was entrained and not involved in the defense of the city.


Chapter 6

This chapter, which is a tour-de-force, describes the intensity of combat, and is worth reading for the raw feelings caused by modern warfare alone. Still, there are several problems with the chapter. Sajer’s by now well-documented muddling of dates and places is played out in full, and the inclusion of the young Waffen-SS troops is hard to explain.

“The Battle of Belgorod” problem. As noted above, Belgorod was firmly in German hands until 5 August, and thus not the object for any battle in the middle of July. On page 217, just before the start of the battle, an NCO says that they are about three miles north-west of Belgorod. That would place GD in the area of the III Panzerkorps, not the XXXXVIII Panzerkorps, to which GD belonged. Belgorod (which wasn’t in Soviet hands) is said to have been taken by the end of the second day of battle, which by Sajer’s account would be on a day when GD wasn’t even in the frontline. In the real Operation Zitadelle, the village Cherkasskoye was taken by the Germans on the second day. I can understand the confusion, as an ordinary rifleman didn’t have a horizon that stretched much further than a couple of hundred meters from his foxhole. I’ve read a US veteran’s account, where he didn’t even know which country he was in around the time of the Battle of the Bulge.

Sajer’s claim that “the Battle of Belgorod” took place in the middle of July is, as evidenced by the history of the GD Division, patently off. Considering that soldiers were forbidden to keep diaries, such a lapse is understandable.

The “Young lions” problem. Sajer describes how 18,000 young replacements from the Hitlerjugend arrives to the front from the “Silesian camps”. Please note that this shouldn’t be confused with the 12. SS-Panzerdivision ”Hitlerjugend”, which was formed in July 1943 and trained in Belgium. There are indications that large amounts of volunteers came from the Hitlerjugend youth movement during the rebuilding phase in the spring of 1942, and it is possible that similar reinforcements arrived in 1943. 18,000 men are enough for one full division, so Sajer exaggerates the number. GD’s training depot was situated in Cottbus, Brandenburg, and not Silesia.

Sajer gives us (finally) an identifiable unit to which he is posted. As he calls his fellow soldiers “grenadiers”, it can be surmised that he was in the Grenadier-Regiment Großdeutschland 1, (the other infantry regiment was the Füsilier-Regiment Großdeutschland 2). The 5th company was the 1st battalion’s heavy weapons company, equipped with light field guns, AT guns and heavy machineguns (in the pioneer platoon). The commander of the 5th company, Lieutenant Hans Joachim Schafmeister-Berckholtz, recalls a Sajer serving in that company.

So, allowing for faulty recollections of dates, places and numbers, it is fully possible that Guy Sajer fought in Operation Zitadelle.

Edit: The remarks for "'The Young lions' problem".
Last edited by B Hellqvist on 29 Jul 2008 20:06, edited 1 time in total.
User avatar
B Hellqvist
Member
Sweden
 
Posts: 481
Joined: 29 Apr 2004 00:45
Location: Sweden

Next

Return to Reference Material

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: CommonCrawl [Bot] and 1 guest