Another set of new WSS RK Books!?

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krichter33
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Another set of new WSS RK Books!?

#1

Post by krichter33 » 27 Jun 2014, 06:42

Has anyone heard anything at all about the following book "Aus eigenem Entschluss. Die Ritterkreuzträger der Waffen-SS. Band 1" by Karl?

http://www.amazon.de/Aus-eigenem-Entsch ... chlu%C3%9F

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Re: Another set of new WSS RK Books!?

#2

Post by pim » 29 Jun 2014, 09:39

Large book and well produced. The photo material is very good. Many unpublished photos of good quality. A lot of text but nothing much new and quite subjective in that regard.


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Re: Another set of new WSS RK Books!?

#3

Post by krichter33 » 30 Jun 2014, 01:53

Do you know how the text is? Does it just list the basic points of their career, or is it written in biography form?

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Re: Another set of new WSS RK Books!?

#4

Post by Harro » 30 Jun 2014, 17:06

I cannot find anything about the author but the little I can find about his publisher Adoria Verlag supports my itching feeling that we're looking at yet another attempt to glorify the Waffen-SS. Adoria Verlag is owned by known neonazi Dankwart Strauch, leader of the "Einheit Nordland" of the "Heimattreue Deutsche Jugend", until the HDJ was banned in 2009 for organizing HJ-style neonazi youth camps.

The description of the book seems to indicate that the text relies mainly on the recommendation documents from the BDC files and various unit histories. I don't expect a book written with an objective approach.

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Re: Another set of new WSS RK Books!?

#5

Post by pim » 30 Jun 2014, 22:44

It is in a biographical form. For example: parents name, their occupation, where they lived, etc. And what Timo has stated above is in many ways correct.

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Re: Another set of new WSS RK Books!?

#6

Post by krichter33 » 01 Jul 2014, 02:11

Too bad. :( I already ordered Miller's new WSS RK books, so I'll be happy with those.

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Re: Another set of new WSS RK Books!?

#7

Post by Syra » 25 Feb 2015, 21:22

Dear pim,

if you find the book have no new information´s, you haven´t read it. If you and Harro find further, the book is quite subjective and written without an objective approach, you have no idea. The book based on the text from the documents from the former Berlin-Document-Centre, now Bundesarchiv and have the same basis as the books from Mr. Yerger. Not more and not less. I do not know how to come to such an opinion.

J.K.

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Re: Another set of new WSS RK Books!?

#8

Post by Harro » 26 Feb 2015, 08:05

Dear J.K.,

By confirming that the book is based on the documents from the BDC you've just underlined that the book is not objective, because for that you need a variety of sources instead of only the files from the former SS Personalhauptamt. I have red the chapter about Gustav Knittel: a simple pastiche from his Personalakte mixed with some stuff I've posted in this forum, but not a single word about the murders his battalion committed in the Ardennes and his direct and indirect responsibility for those crimes, yet the author does parrot the HIAG-approved mantras about torture and mock trials in 1946. The author even fails to mention that Knittel was not among those who were sentenced to death. There's also nothing about his character, nothing about his troubled soul, about his defeatism or about his difficult relation with his subordinates both during and after the war.

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Re: Another set of new WSS RK Books!?

#9

Post by Syra » 27 Feb 2015, 00:59

Dear harro,

thanks for your answer. Too bad you only read one of around 200 described men in the book. The author explained in its introduction why he has left any personal interpretation away. What is more objective than original documents. And how you can assess Knittels character, his troubled soul or his difficult relation with his subordinates. I don´t know if the author from this book had contact to veterans. But I know from them, that some considered him a good superior, others do not. He was certainly not an easy character. That was the same by Kurt Meyer, Gerhard Bremer and a lot of other officers in wartime. What does you mean with his direct and indirect responsibility for crimes in the Ardennes? (Parfondruy, Malmedy or what?) There was never a command to execute enemy soldiers in the Ardennes from the German side. If so, prove it. Or why do you think Major McGown with 400 US-Soldiers survive the war? There is no doubt that was tortured in Schwäbisch Hall. Everyone would have added any crime. And this have nothing to do with the HIAG. Don´t understand me wrong. There was murder in the conflict and probably Goltz with the others was sentenced to right for Parfondruy. But often I lack the evidence and the convictions on the other side.

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Re: Another set of new WSS RK Books!?

#10

Post by krichter33 » 27 Feb 2015, 03:11

I assume Syra is the author of the books, Jürgen Karl...

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Re: Another set of new WSS RK Books!?

#11

Post by krichter33 » 27 Feb 2015, 03:12

If anyone has a copy maybe they can scan some pages of the book???

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Re: Another set of new WSS RK Books!?

#12

Post by Harro » 27 Feb 2015, 15:30

Syra wrote:What is more objective than original documents.
Please, that's one of the basic rules of proper research: always consider who wrote the document, who was his intended audience, when was it written, why was it written, what are the motivations of the writer, etc. Another basic rule is to use multiple sources for cross-reference .
Syra wrote: What does you mean with his direct and indirect responsibility for crimes in the Ardennes? (Parfondruy, Malmedy or what?)
Not Malmédy, but Parfondruy, Stavelot, Renardmont, Ster, Trois-Ponts, Petit-Spay, la Vaux Richard and Wéreth. Schnelle Gruppe Knittel murdered hundreds of civilians and at least 22 American POWs. Knittel was the commanding officer of this Schnelle Gruppe and as such responsible for the behaviour of his subordinates. Besides that, he confessed to personally ordering the execution of eight American POWs and there's sufficient prove who these men were, which unit they belonged to, that they were indeed killed in the exact way Knittel described, where they were killed and where they bodies were found.
There's also sufficient prove for the murder of civilians in the above mentioned towns and hamlets. Victims are known by name, there are detailed accounts of the massacres, there are photos of corpses, crime scenes and burials. In most cases it is known which subunits of the AA LAH were responsible.
For an example, see my recent post about the massacre in Stavelot: http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic. ... 3#p1930323
Syra wrote:There was never a command to execute enemy soldiers in the Ardennes from the German side. If so, prove it.
I agree that there never was such a command, so I don't see why I should prove the opposite.
Or why do you think Major McGown with 400 US-Soldiers survive the war?
By the time McGown was captured Peiper was encircled and knew his chances to escape from the La Gleize Pocket were small. He also realized that the Americans knew about the Baugnez Crossroads and other murders and fully understood that - as he could soon become a POW - he could use all the goodwill he could get to make his soon-to-be-captors believe that he wasn't such a bad egg. He played McGown for this reason and McGown bought it. Knittel more or less did the same in the Antoine Farm since he was also fully aware of the crimes he and his men had committed. In January 1945 his wife visited him in hospital and he told her: Stavelot wird noch Ärger bereiten.
Syra wrote:There is no doubt that was tortured in Schwäbisch Hall.
Knittel certainly wasn't. Between July 1946 and May 1949, none of his many complaints about the unfairness of his trial and sentence mention torture or abuse, nor does he mention it in his correspondence with his laywers. But as soon as Raymond E. Baldwin and his Senate Committee started his investigations regarding the unlawful methods used in Schwäbisch Hall, Knittel wrote a complaint in which he listed numerous cases of abuse both in Schwäbisch Hall and Ulm prison, which he repeated when doctor Terry came to see him four months later. Such a "coinsidence" that Knittel "remembered" all this as soon as it could provide a free-out-of-jail-card. Especially since I found suficient prove that he lied on other occassions to get his sentence reduced.
Syra wrote:Everyone would have added any crime. And this have nothing to do with the HIAG.
Yet the author choose not to add the proven crimes committed by Knittel and his men, but does mention alleged crimes committed against a few members of the LAH. That's the HIAG-approved version.
Syra wrote:But often I lack the evidence and the convictions on the other side.
The chapter is about Knittel, not about the other side.

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Re: Another set of new WSS RK Books!?

#13

Post by Syra » 03 Mar 2015, 02:17

Please harro, you talk about proper research? Where are your information´s from? Thomas or Westemeier? Over the years I have heard 20 or more versions from the so called "Malmedy massacre". You think you know the truth what happened in the Ardennes? Evidence!!! It is still counts the personal blame. There is no evidence that Knittel personally murdered or ordered to kill. His confession was extracted under torture, or how do you call when one is threatened with death? Do you think that someone says that he was tortured when he was tortured? Were are your information´s from "Stavelot wird noch Ärger bereiten"? From Knittel himself or his wife? Why should he confess the personally ordering to execution eight American POWs when he knew, that it brings him to the gallows?

There are more soldiers who taken pow than McGown with his man. What about the 150 GIs at Honsfeld. What about Lt.Col. John Ray? At this time Peiper an others were not in a trap in La Gleize.

You talk about of hundreds of civilians who were killed. I talk about the American Military Tribunal at Dachau which was not conducted like a typical trial in the American justice system. Some notes, not mine!

Guilt was established beforehand by interrogators assigned to obtain confessions from the accused who were then presumed guilty; the burden of proof was on the defense, not the prosecution. A panel of American military officers acted as both judges and jury and the defense attorneys were also American military officers. The judges took judicial notice of the crimes that were allegedly committed, which meant that the defense was not permitted to argue that the crimes had not taken place. Hearsay testimony was allowed and affidavits could be submitted by witnesses who did not appear in the courtroom and thus could not be cross examined by the defense.
In some of the proceedings at Dachau, the prosecution witnesses were paid to testify. Some of the accused were not permitted to testify in their own defense. Thus the outcome of the Malmedy Massacre (and others) proceedings was never in doubt.

H. Goltz for example came to court only 1948 in Lüttich. He was convicted to 15 years imprisonment for murder in Stavelot. Three year later he was free! Not much for a mass murderer. The Staatsanwaltschaft Hamburg negotiated 1969 against him and others. (Az. 147 Js 30/69) All the accused were acquitted for lack of evidence .

I will not apologize the crimes of soldiers brutalized from the eastern front in the Ardennes who are partly 18 years old!!! But only assertions without evidence is a no go! Furthermore, I have my view of things. You have yours. All the best.

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Re: Another set of new WSS RK Books!?

#14

Post by Harro » 03 Mar 2015, 07:56

Syra wrote:Please harro, you talk about proper research? Where are your information´s from? Thomas or Westemeier?
Nope, I have researched Gustav Knittel over the las 19 years and my book is due to come out this autumn. I got help from his family and dozens of veterans like Hans-Martin Leidreiter (his former adjutant).
Syra wrote:Over the years I have heard 20 or more versions from the so called "Malmedy massacre".
Again, this is not about Malmédy. It is about the towns and hamlets mentioned in my previous post, especially Petit-Spay where Knittel personally ordered the murder of eight members from a bazooka squad from E Company, 2nd Battalion, 505th Parachute Infantry. These men had been captured east of Trois-Ponts (see the document posted below, notice 12:45) by members of Heinz Wägners schwere Kompanie who led them to the Chateau de Petit-Spay - known to them as the Kinderheim - where Gustav Knittel had them shot, exactly in the way he confessed in his Schwäbisch Hall statement. A little later three more American POWs - Mortar Platoon, HQ Company, 2nd Battalion, 505th Parachute Infantry Regiment - were executed on in the same manner on the same spot (Theo Gernt, Zugführer in the Stabskompanie, even marked the spot where their bodies were left on a hand-drawn map and civilian Jean Elias from Trois-Ponts also testified that he saw their bodies.
His confession was extracted under torture, or how do you call when one is threatened with death?
I call it an obvious lie he constructed three years later.
Syra wrote:Do you think that someone says that he was tortured when he was tortured?
We're not talking about "when he was tortured", we're talking about the three years between the trial and his sudden "complaints" about abuse. Like I mentioned in my previous post: he brought forward a whole range of reasons why he trial had been unfair and why he supposedly was innocent of the crimes he was convicted for, but not a single word about abuse or torture until May 1949.
Syra wrote:Were are your information´s from "Stavelot wird noch Ärger bereiten"? From Knittel himself or his wife?
His wife
Syra wrote:Why should he confess the personally ordering to execution eight American POWs when he knew, that it brings him to the gallows?
Ah, finally you start asking the rigth questions. Yes, why do you think he did that and why do you think did he retracted his statements after the trial? You'll probabely say "torture", I say he had a plan that backfired during the trial because his defense lawyers were not allowed access to the war diaries of the 82nd Airborne Division and the 30th Infantry Division. He complained about this in his letter to Everett dated February 16, 1947. In hindsight he was extremely lucky that these wardiaries were never used by the prosecution, due to lack of time. Knittel was brought in from Ulm Prison - where he had been interrogated by two CIC officers who did not have a clue what to ask him - to Schwäbisch Hall only weeks before the trial started but once they realized that he had nothing to do with the Baugnez Crossroads, the prosecution simply lacked the time to look into the other facts. What do you think would have been the outcome of the trial if the prosecution had come across the page from the wardiary posted below and had made the connection with Knittel's statements? Knittel was extremely lucky to get off with life imprisonment.
Syra wrote:There are more soldiers who taken pow than McGown with his man. What about the 150 GIs at Honsfeld. What about Lt.Col. John Ray? At this time Peiper an others were not in a trap in La Gleize.

You talk about of hundreds of civilians who were killed. I talk about the American Military Tribunal at Dachau which was not conducted like a typical trial in the American justice system. Some notes, not mine!

Guilt was established beforehand by interrogators assigned to obtain confessions from the accused who were then presumed guilty; the burden of proof was on the defense, not the prosecution. A panel of American military officers acted as both judges and jury and the defense attorneys were also American military officers. The judges took judicial notice of the crimes that were allegedly committed, which meant that the defense was not permitted to argue that the crimes had not taken place. Hearsay testimony was allowed and affidavits could be submitted by witnesses who did not appear in the courtroom and thus could not be cross examined by the defense.
In some of the proceedings at Dachau, the prosecution witnesses were paid to testify. Some of the accused were not permitted to testify in their own defense. Thus the outcome of the Malmedy Massacre (and others) proceedings was never in doubt.
The discussion is about Gustav Knittel, not about the trial in general which was, indeed, a mess. But with all your talk about injustice, you have not put forward a single point that proves me wrong about Knittel.
G2missingBazookaTeam.JPG

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Re: Another set of new WSS RK Books!?

#15

Post by Harro » 07 Mar 2015, 11:37

Interesting, people demand prove yet when you provide it they suddenly remain silent.

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