Tactical Operational history of Normandy?

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Richard Anderson
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Re: Tactical Operational history of Normandy?

#16

Post by Richard Anderson » 10 Jan 2017, 20:54

Mori wrote:If you know any way to read the draft manuscripts with annotations, baring travelling to NARA, I'd be extremely interested.
No, sorry, I don't. And unfortunately for the one's I have seen in the CMH collection, such as Marshall's Bastogne book, the draft pages have been scattered willy-nilly between boxes.
There is no doubt on the quality of the Green Books. They were written by very professional scholars and it is truly exceptionnal when any of what they described is faulty (in the sense: not based on a precise & well-understood source). We can trust Weinberg's advice: they are the best starting point to understand the military campaigns.

That said, I don't exactly see the "heavy references" you mention. And when it comes to the German side, such references are almost always FMS. I did not study all Green Books, but take MacDonald's Last Offensive, Clarke's Riveria to the Rhine, and Cole's The Ardennes. MacDonald routinely gives his (German) sources: they are FMS or a synthesis by Magna E. Bauer. Clarke does not share as many sources as MacDonald, but when he does, they are FMS. That's occasionally frustrating because Clarke could access Ultra intercepts - which makes his book one of the very best - but does not tell which one he precisely refers to. Cole's sources are almost only FMS, the only other notable German source being the OKW KTB and the records of the Malmedy trial.
Sorry, I should have been more precise. Yes, the further one gets into the war, the fewer the references to original documents. That was for a very simple reason, the Heer retired documents from field units to the Potsdam archives on a bi-annual basis, however, when those of the second six months of 1944 were to be retired, things were a bit of a shambles, so are hit or miss. The events of the campaign in France also had an effect; most of the corps and divisional records are missing, and the records of 7. Armee and Panzergruppe West/5. Panzerarmee abruptly end in mid-August, before beginning again in fragmentary form in the fall.

There is another problem you comment touches on, which is the notorious history of Riviera to the Rhine. It was begun by Robert Ross Smith as part of the original Office of the Chief of Military History writing staff in the 1960's, but then he was transferred to the staff of PACOM to begin work on the history of the Vietnam War. Meanwhile, OCMH staff and budgets were steadily reduced and it was renamed the Center for Military History as a field operating agency under the general staff supervision of the Deputy Chief of Staff for Military Operations (later the Deputy Chief of Staff for Operations and Plans), instead of as a Special Staff under the Chief of Staff. It was then during the period 1973-1983 that the "Old Guard" retired and emphasis was redirected at preparing a Vietnam history and Riviera to the Rhine was turned over to Clarke for completion. Shortly thereafter, CMH also lost control of the Military History Institute at Carlisle Barracks, which came under the purview of the Army War College. The end result of the turnovers, discontent in OCMH/CMH, and other factors was that Riviera to the Rhine was the last major operational study done in the Green Books series and it is reportedly rife with errors - apparently partly because by the time the first draft was completed there were no major participants left to review it. One specific error I know of was the description of the heroic death in combat during NORDWIND of one of the tank battalion commanders, who wrote to CMH to let them know he was actually very much alive after reading the book in 1994. :|

The other problem is that while Clarke could refer to ULTRA in his work, by then budget cuts meant that he was essentially a "one-man-band" and had to do all his own research as well as integrate his materiel into Smith's original draft sections. The result was the uneven referencing to ULTRA documentation.

As late as 1989-1990, Doc Cole and Mac MacDonald were still very disgruntled with the loss of professionalism in the transition from OCMH to CMH.

Oh, and the Vietnam history? It's still being written. Supposedly. It got so bad after the first Gulf War that the Chief of Staff decided to bypass the sclerotic CMH production cycle and appointed the Desert Storm Special Study Group under General Bob Scales to write the history independently of CMH after realizing Riviera to the Rhine was being published forty years after work began on it and not a single operational narrative volume on Vietnam had been completed twenty years after the end of the war. 8O :roll:
Let me again repeat that the strength of scholarship in these Green Books does not make that problematic. But I wouldn't claim these works leverage more than FMS to describe the German side. Even if millions of pages of captured archives were at walking distance, they were not used for these books. A very simple reason could be that MacDonald, Cole or Clarke do not speak German. Strength of the Green books is first and before all on the Americans - as it is supposed to be.
Again to be more precise, the use of original documents can best be seen in the volumes dealing with the war in the Mediterranean, especially Tunisia, Sicily, and the first volume on the Italian Campaign. Ditto for Cross Channel Attack, but then less so afterwards. Because of the lack of documents and documentary continuity in the latter volumes on Northwest Europe, Cole, MacDonald, et al relied more on the research work of Magna Bauer, Charles V. P. von Luttichau, and Royce L. Thompson, who synthesized quite a bit of data from the fragmentary documentation available.
About the British official history: Ellis considers himself a source, which is... a problem. But he is quite a serious historian too and what he writes is usually based on first class primary material. However, he tends to only select what serves the British army best... Problem is not that he does not give the sources of information, but the way he selects them.
Part of it was when the British historians were writing, Montgomery was still very much a presence shadowing their work. However, they also did not have the resources OCMH had during the 1940s and 1950s and had a much less ambitious scope of work.
Richard C. Anderson Jr.

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Re: Tactical Operational history of Normandy?

#17

Post by Richard Anderson » 10 Jan 2017, 21:03

Sheldrake wrote:There is a better British narrative available. The Official history was written from the classified Cabinet Historical Section papers to those who visit the National Archives or pay for someone else. These are based on an analysis of war diaries and cross referenced against sources.
Indeed. The then unpublished (some of them have now been published) RAF and Admiralty histories are also quite good and completely referenced, as are the ULTRA Secret :D intelligence histories of various campaigns. They of course were not available to the authors of the original official histories anymore than they were to CMH/OCMH in the States with the exception of Riviera to the Rhine. The thing is, the authors of the official histories could have easily referenced from the Cabinet histories, but did not. While the source might have still been secret on publication, the reference would not necessarily be secret if it did not refer to sources and methods.
Richard C. Anderson Jr.

American Thunder: U.S. Army Tank Design, Development, and Doctrine in World War II
Cracking Hitler's Atlantic Wall
Hitler's Last Gamble
Artillery Hell


Mori
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Re: Tactical Operational history of Normandy?

#18

Post by Mori » 10 Jan 2017, 22:34

Richard Anderson wrote: There is another problem you comment touches on, which is the notorious history of Riviera to the Rhine. It was begun by Robert Ross Smith as part of the original Office of the Chief of Military History writing staff in the 1960's, but then he was transferred to the staff of PACOM to begin work on the history of the Vietnam War. Meanwhile, OCMH staff and budgets were steadily reduced and it was renamed the Center for Military History as a field operating agency under the general staff supervision of the Deputy Chief of Staff for Military Operations (later the Deputy Chief of Staff for Operations and Plans), instead of as a Special Staff under the Chief of Staff. It was then during the period 1973-1983 that the "Old Guard" retired and emphasis was redirected at preparing a Vietnam history and Riviera to the Rhine was turned over to Clarke for completion. Shortly thereafter, CMH also lost control of the Military History Institute at Carlisle Barracks, which came under the purview of the Army War College. The end result of the turnovers, discontent in OCMH/CMH, and other factors was that Riviera to the Rhine was the last major operational study done in the Green Books series and it is reportedly rife with errors - apparently partly because by the time the first draft was completed there were no major participants left to review it. One specific error I know of was the description of the heroic death in combat during NORDWIND of one of the tank battalion commanders, who wrote to CMH to let them know he was actually very much alive after reading the book in 1994. :|

The other problem is that while Clarke could refer to ULTRA in his work, by then budget cuts meant that he was essentially a "one-man-band" and had to do all his own research as well as integrate his materiel into Smith's original draft sections. The result was the uneven referencing to ULTRA documentation.

As late as 1989-1990, Doc Cole and Mac MacDonald were still very disgruntled with the loss of professionalism in the transition from OCMH to CMH.
I did not know about the cumbersome way Riveria to the Rhine was completed. Your description is truly interesting. Incidently, you also make me realize I need to double check many things from this volume - you've just added quite a lot of work on my plate :)
Last edited by Mori on 10 Jan 2017, 22:45, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Tactical Operational history of Normandy?

#19

Post by Mori » 10 Jan 2017, 22:43

Richard Anderson wrote: Sorry, I should have been more precise. Yes, the further one gets into the war, the fewer the references to original documents. That was for a very simple reason, the Heer retired documents from field units to the Potsdam archives on a bi-annual basis, however, when those of the second six months of 1944 were to be retired, things were a bit of a shambles, so are hit or miss. The events of the campaign in France also had an effect; most of the corps and divisional records are missing, and the records of 7. Armee and Panzergruppe West/5. Panzerarmee abruptly end in mid-August, before beginning again in fragmentary form in the fall.
I understand your perspective much better, and it all makes sense.

I would only add that fewer primary sources for the Sep 1944-May 1945 also means... much quicker to read & compile. So less excuse not to do so :)

In fact, there is still a fair amount of material available, for example at ObWest level. Reading the ULTRA intercepts also fills many gaps - even if very few scholars ever used Ultra data with this objective in mind.

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Re: Tactical Operational history of Normandy?

#20

Post by Sheldrake » 11 Jan 2017, 02:56

I am not sure exactly what access to ULTRA adds to our understanding of tactical operational history of the Normandy campaign.

Sure, the allies could read the enemy's mail, This meant that the 7th Armoured Division on 15th June and 11th Armoured Division on 29th June could be confidently withdrawn from dangerous salients. The Mortain counter attack was telegraphed. The "good intelligence" was also in the official histories.

I have read some of the Ultra informed History of the Normandy campaign. It gives more precision to intelligence assessments, but it could not influence the ability of the allies to implement their plans in the face of difficult terrain and a stubborn enemy.

Ultra may also have encouraged over-confidence in assessments, and over reliance it as a source. In North Africa intercepts of Rommel's (exaggerated) messages reporting a dire supply situation encouraged Churchill to put pressure on local commanders to act before they were ready. It also encouraged Churchill to try to hold Crete despite German command of the air. I am not sure it had that influence in Normandy.
Last edited by Sheldrake on 11 Jan 2017, 11:25, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Tactical Operational history of Normandy?

#21

Post by krichter33 » 11 Jan 2017, 03:19

:(

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Re: Tactical Operational history of Normandy?

#22

Post by Mori » 11 Jan 2017, 15:33

Sheldrake wrote:I am not sure exactly what access to ULTRA adds to our understanding of tactical operational history of the Normandy campaign.

Sure, the allies could read the enemy's mail...
You got me wrong ;) ULTRA interception is an effective way to fill the gaps in the German documents, when these documents did not make it to NARA/BAMA. I believe that's the most important value of ULTRA archives: it is often all that remain of German original reports, such as strength and supply reports, intelligence reports, operational orders, air reconnaissance results, train movements etc.

Although ULTRA was declassified in the 1970's, most authors only use this source to assess "what the Allies knew". Very few leverage the ULTRA corpus to better understand the German operations / decision making / supply and manpower / intelligence etc.

From autumn 1944 on, ULTRA data transmitted to the Allied field commanders were about 1000 pages per day (per day!). ULTRA data deciphered, which includes all documents not worth sending to field commanders, were way bigger.

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Re: Tactical Operational history of Normandy?

#23

Post by nickster » 12 Feb 2017, 22:20

Hi I'm looking for tactical information about Normandy. I'm trying to find what the disposition of tanks and fortified positions were on 6-6-44 and each day after (what was still operational and where it was). I think it was the 21st that had about 238 armored vehicles in the Normandy area on the 6th. I believe they got orders to attack in the early afternoon, first going North on East side of the river then going back to Caan and going North on the West side of the river. I am not sure if they engaged the Canadians on the late 6th or early on the 7th. I'd like to get details of what vehicles they started the 6th with and then finished it with, I heard they lost a number to airstrikes during the day.

What I'm hoping to do is go through day by day and get the disposition of forces and engagements of both sides day by day until the end of fighting in Normandy.

Any thoughts? Best,
Nick

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Re: Tactical Operational history of Normandy?

#24

Post by j keenan » 13 Feb 2017, 01:27

The Combat History of the 21st Panzer Division, 1943-45
by Werner Kortenhaus

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Re: Tactical Operational history of Normandy?

#25

Post by Sheldrake » 13 Feb 2017, 09:02

j keenan wrote:The Combat History of the 21st Panzer Division, 1943-45
by Werner Kortenhaus
Its not bad but there are gaps- in particular for the end of day positions 6 June

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Re: Tactical Operational history of Normandy?

#26

Post by Mori » 11 May 2018, 05:19

Richard Anderson wrote: There is another problem you comment touches on, which is the notorious history of Riviera to the Rhine. It was begun by Robert Ross Smith as part of the original Office of the Chief of Military History writing staff in the 1960's, but then he was transferred to the staff of PACOM to begin work on the history of the Vietnam War. Meanwhile, OCMH staff and budgets were steadily reduced and it was renamed the Center for Military History as a field operating agency under the general staff supervision of the Deputy Chief of Staff for Military Operations (later the Deputy Chief of Staff for Operations and Plans), instead of as a Special Staff under the Chief of Staff. It was then during the period 1973-1983 that the "Old Guard" retired and emphasis was redirected at preparing a Vietnam history and Riviera to the Rhine was turned over to Clarke for completion. Shortly thereafter, CMH also lost control of the Military History Institute at Carlisle Barracks, which came under the purview of the Army War College. The end result of the turnovers, discontent in OCMH/CMH, and other factors was that Riviera to the Rhine was the last major operational study done in the Green Books series and it is reportedly rife with errors - apparently partly because by the time the first draft was completed there were no major participants left to review it. One specific error I know of was the description of the heroic death in combat during NORDWIND of one of the tank battalion commanders, who wrote to CMH to let them know he was actually very much alive after reading the book in 1994. :|

The other problem is that while Clarke could refer to ULTRA in his work, by then budget cuts meant that he was essentially a "one-man-band" and had to do all his own research as well as integrate his materiel into Smith's original draft sections. The result was the uneven referencing to ULTRA documentation.

As late as 1989-1990, Doc Cole and Mac MacDonald were still very disgruntled with the loss of professionalism in the transition from OCMH to CMH.
I hadn't forgotten the editorial history of Riviera to the Rhine and I did some research to relax between more serious stuff.

The project (code named 16-P) actually started in 1946. The guy in charge, called Hamilton, had participated in the 7th Army report. He worked on the book until 1951 when he left OCHM. He wrote 16 chapters, mostly on Anvil planning - that's equivalent to 3-4 chapters of the final publication -, but his manuscript wasn't even good enough for internal reviews.

In 1953 the book got another responsible, Sunderland, who left two years later having completed no more than 1 chapter.

In 1956 Smith was assigned as sole author. Yes, he started working on RttR in 1956! He could not do much on RttR for various reasons (taking an assignment in Hawai and liking it enough to extend his stay being one of them) so that the book got another author in 1965, Richard Kugler. Kugler did not do anything on RttR until he was relieved and replaced by Romanus in 1967. Romanus could not do more than "note drafts". Then Smith resumed working on the book. It was 1971.

Smith had put together a 1200 pages manuscript when he definitively got tired of it. In 1983, one year before retirement, he explained he did not intend on working on RttR anymore. He had 28 chapters and 2 lenghty appendix but still lacked 6 chapters covering Nordwind and the Colmar pocket.

After Martin Blumenson declined the job, Clarke was in charge. He was told to complete the book, to improve clarity, and also to revise the Smith chapters into a more concise version. This actually means he had to rewrite major sections of the book, as the final draft (including the chapters Smith did not write), is 1/3 shorter than the Smith manuscript. The main sections purely from Clarke are the description of German forces prior to Anvil, the Allied assault plan, the Montelimar battle, the pursuit up the Rhone valley, the November offensive through the Saverne Gap (US) and the Belfort Gap (Fr), not to mention Nordwind and the Colmar pocket.

Obviously Clarke was very efficient as it took him about 2 years to do this job. It may have made it quicker for Clarke that many of the participants were deceased as he was not tempted to run some extra interviews or to engage in lenghty correspondance. But then Clarke also added research into the Ultra intercepts. All this makes Smith look pale in comparison: probably Smith was a very slow, extremely detailed oriented author with a near zero ability to focus, if it was not lazyness.

The book was reviewed by Martin Blumenson, Russel Weigley, and Smith himself. There wasn't any major remark from the reviewers, except that Smith whined about the deletion of his 2 appendix.

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