Lina Heydrich & Max Williams biography of Heydrich

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Misty Dawn Bright
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Re: Lina Heydrich

#46

Post by Misty Dawn Bright » 22 Jul 2004, 12:13

1. I agree with the comments concerning spelling and grammar. However, I believe that this only applies to the first smaller volume. This is a fault which lies with alterations made by the publisher without my agreement or knowledge. The mistakes are nearly all where the publisher altered large chunks of the text. The second, much larger volume, addresses the shortcomings of the first. Misty Dawn Bright reveals her lack of knowledge of the publication business in that alterations can be made without the author's agreement or knowledge. The author also has no control whatsoever over the final production, such as hard or soft covers! I do take exception to the remarks regarding the quality of the research based on spelling, etc.. Her simplistic reasoning indicates a rather thin argument and deserves no further comment.
An effective use of language should be one of the foundations of any published scholarly work. So my reasoning is not "simplistic." The fact that many of you are willing to forego those considerations points to a frightening lack of academic standards when evaluating historical works. No, consideratons of spelling and grammar go far beyond issues like photo quality and binding, and even if they are the publisher's fault, this should not make for ease of mind, as the lack of decent proofreading does not show the publisher's credentials in a good light either.
2. The fact remains that the Heydrich family did not wish to communicate with me at the time. It is a reasonable supposition that the reasons were to maintain their privacy. Whether or not their stance has now changed on this matter remains to be seen, but to insinuate that the reasons given are a fabrication I find insulting and without substance. Lina Heydrich was the only member of the Heydrich family willing to speak out in defence of her late husband. She gave interviews freely to the media and researchers. It may have escaped Misty Dawn Bright's attention, but Lina Heydrich died in 1985 and therefore it would have been somewhat of a coup to have landed an interview with her when the research for my book began in 1992.
I did not "insinuate" that Max History was lying when he made his assumption that the reason he wasn't granted an interview by the Heydrich family was that they wished to maintain a lower profile. If I had believed that, I would have said so. And the author still has not addressed the fact that what I actually said was that the other Heydrich family members (after Lina Heydrich's death) had granted interviews to various writers (such as the German author Dederichs and the writers of Stern). I don't understand how anyone could have thought, from reading my comments, that I was criticizing Max History for not having sought an interview with Lina Heydrich after her death. I apologize, however, for not making myself clear as to why I thought that the point was worth bringing up. I simply thought that Max History maybe should have asked himself more searching questions as to why the Heydrich family wasn't willing to give him any information or grant him an interview when they had obviously been willing to speak to other writers and interviewers.
3. Lina's book is biased towards her late husband. That point is made quite clear in my book. However, her primary evidence is stronger than most other sources on Heydrich's private life, for obvious reasons.
Why? Just because someone is close to someone else, that person is a more honest, reliable witness? Max History pointed out that Lina Heydrich's account had been written in defense of her husband. That should have been all the more reason to scrutinize it more thoroughly. Instead, whenever Max History comes across some (usually negative) piece of evidence, he compares it with what Lina Heydrich says in her book and sides with Lina's account, even when there are no other sources to back it up.
4. There are no sources listed at the beginning of the book, only acknowledgements. Because someone helps an author does not mean that their input is used in the final version. Another indication of the lack of understanding of research and writing by Misty Dawn Bright.
Max, please, go back and read my comments again, because you obviously didn't read them carefully the first time. But maybe I should make myself clearer yet again, as Max has proved himself willing to jump on any straw that might be a flaw in my argument and exploit it accordingly. So maybe I should make sure that he's attacking the right straws. There is a list at the back of the book of all of the sources that Max History uses. Hardly any of those are listed in the endnotes.
5. Nowhere did I refer to Lina Heydrich's book as "an excellent historical work." Her use of inverted commas as a quote is incorrect. This is not a quote from the book and is therefore misleading. My actual phrase is (and I quote) "...Deschner's book offers much information gained from personal interviews with Heydrich's widow and various Heydrich associates; while Lina Heydrich's book offers personal detail about her late husband and her view of the National Socialist leadership. Both of these excellent works have been utilised for source material for this study."
I apologize for the misquote, but this point still goes back to my assertion that it's dangerous to use as primary source material a book that was merely written as a personal account, and did not have to take into consideration any issues of historical accuracy.
I will finish by stating that Misty Dawn Bright admits that she "reads between the lines" when studying any historical biography. Surely this is dangerous and will lead the reader to come to conclusions about the subject material that are not necessarily the truth. Strange for a comment made by someone who is so stringent about sources listed!
I leave my books to the readers to make up their own minds and I apologise for replying to a negative personal review.
Max.
What I meant by "reading between the lines" was that anyone who reads historical source material should keep in mind the biases of the historical witnesses and the author. I stand by my comments, having clarified them. And I also didn't mean to sound as strident and insulting as other people (including Max History) seem to think I did. I was merely attempting to convey the depth of my concern with these issues. Also, when I made the point that the book was in hardcover and not softcover, I merely meant that hardcover books tend to be more expensive than softcover books, so when one is published, the responsibility lies on the author and the publisher to make it worth reading.

By far, one of my biggest issues with the books is that the author heavily criticizes claims made by certain authors (such as Edouard Calic) without even bothering to examine the author's arguments and just making sweeping statements about the source. For example, when Max History criticizes the allegation that Heydrich was behind the attempted coupe that killed the Austrian Chancellor, he in effect accuses Edouard Calic of having concocted a conspirac theory and merely says, "There is no direct evidence that he [Heydrich] was involved." If Max is going to make that claim to his readers, not spelling out the evidence is, I'm sorry, lazy scholarship.

Max Williams
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#47

Post by Max Williams » 22 Jul 2004, 17:19

I have no intention of turning this into a "slanging match". Misty Dawn Bright's attempt at explaining her points is still incorrect, misleading and insulting. Maybe she should read her original comments more carefully instead of advising me to.
I will not be replying to any more of her comments. Thank you to other contributors who have supported my reply, both on the forum and by private message. It is clear she is "looking down her nose" at you as well as me.
As far as I am concerned, this thread is now at an end.
Max.


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Michael Miller
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Thread reopened

#48

Post by Michael Miller » 24 Jul 2004, 18:37

Thread resurrected, with a few small adjustments.

My apologies to those who have conducted themselves maturely and professionally in this discussion.

Sincerely,
~ Mike Miller

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Re: Lina Heydrich

#49

Post by xcalibur » 26 Jul 2004, 05:54

Then again, Misty, maybe most folks buy these books for the pictures.


[A very long quote was removed, don't quote a page worth of text just to add a few words of your own /webmaster]

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helen
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misty dawn brights comments

#50

Post by helen » 27 Jul 2004, 21:04

I have been offline a while due to illness and whilst I respect Max Historys decision not to reply to the comments made by Misty Dawn Bright feel I should mention the fact that it was her who started this thread - asking if anyone had any information about Lina - and when recommended to read the only concise and comprehensive work involving Lina's husband (i.e. Max Williams biography of Heydrich) she replied with nothing but criticisms.

I am not wishing to restart a slanging match - but would like to point out that if Misty Dawn Bright wishes to know 'did Lina and her husband fight? if so about what' - perhaps she would find more satisfaction following current scandal - like the Beckhams - whose antics are well covered by the press. Max Historys biography deals with facts and is well written - he has more advocates than critics - perhaps this says something.

Good luck to Misty Dawn Bright - perhaps if she is so unimpressed by Max's work she may feel compelled to research and write something better?...............I should be interested to read it.............?

Best regards


Helen

Misty Dawn Bright
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My Critique of Max History's Books

#51

Post by Misty Dawn Bright » 28 Jul 2004, 11:09

For the last time, I did not turn this thread into a "slanging match." It's true that I did respond with "nothing but criticisms" because I felt that the book warranted such. I don't think that I should have to apologize to people who didn't agree with my comments.

However, it does seem that I did make some mistakes in my first critical post that I'll rectify with this post. For that I apologize. The mistakes happened because I have had a very faulty internet connection for the past two weeks, and whenever I post, I feel like I have to type out my post as quickly as possible so that I can send it before the internet goes down.

For those of you who don't care to read or are insulted by an honest critique of the scholarship that went into the books, please skip this post. The last thing I want to do is get into a "slanging match" between those who like Max History and those who don't. However, if you do choose to read and respond, please notice that my comments are confined to the book and not Max History's character or his possible motives.
To start with, the spelling and grammar mistakes are atrocious! I don't mean to be picky, but if I see a work that is meant (or is supposed to be meant) for scholarly submission and publication, I expect the spelling and grammar to be impeccable. Considering how sloppy and haphazard it was in the U of E volumes, I have a hard time believing that this doesn't say something about the quality of the research. Max, please take note, especially since the two volumes in question are only available in hardcover. This is something you seriously need to fix.
Poor spelling, grammar, and usage may not reflect on the quality of the research per se, but it does reflect badly on the scholarship as a whole. A good work of scholarship involves more than merely spending months or even years compiling research. The author must be able to put that research, as well as his or her own arguments, down on paper articulately. To use an elementary analogy, if a college student were to hand in a research paper that was poorly written but otherwise well-researched, he or she would either receive a significantly lower mark or be asked to resubmit the paper. Why? Because his or her professors would have wanted to uphold certain standards in the academic world.

Revisions and/or alterations without the author's approval? Having friends and relatives in the writing business, it strikes me as rather strange that a publisher would make alterations having such a significant effect on the text without re-submitting the work to the author for his or her approval. Even if it was the publisher's fault, this goes back to the issue of faulty editing and proofreading, which seriously hamper a book's reception by an educated and scholarly audience.

Hardbacks versus softbacks? When did I ever say that Max History had purposefully specified that his books be published in hardcover so as to extort more money out of his readers? This was only a side-note of mine and doesn't deserve much comment, other than to say that readers who spend their hard-earned money on hardcover books have the right to expect quality scholarship.
The Heydrich family refused to grant the author an interview. I have a hard time believing that this had to do solely with the desire to keep a low profile. After all, they talked to Stern Magazine, and German author Dederichs, who is working on a new bio (in German) of Heydrich, and Lina Heydrich even talked to Charles Wighton.
OK. This point seems to be provoking much contention with people, so I'll re-state it. At the beginning of his book, in the acknowledgements section, when Max History admits that he was not granted an interview or any information by Reinhard Heydrich's surviving relatives, he concludes that the reason was their desire to keep a lower profile .... "It would understandably seem that the family wish to maintain a lower profile [in the face of Lina Heydrich's death]." Then why did the family agree to speak to the magazine Stern and the German author Dederichs (whose book has not yet been published)? Max History said to me in one of his posts that Lina Heydrich was the only member of Reinhard Heydrich's family willing to speak out about her husband. That still skirted my point, as the Stern and Dederichs interviews happened after Lina Heydrich’s death.

Why is this a concern? Quite simply, I don’t really think that it is necessarily appropriate for Max History to form his own conclusions as to the reasons the Heydrich family did not wish to interview him, and then put those conclusions in print. If he doesn't know the reasons, that's fine, but he shouldn't attempt to speak for the family and make published assumptions about their motives that he may be in no real position to make.

Finally, when I said that Max History should have asked himself "more searching questions" as to why the family didn't talk to him, I did not mean (and didn't even imply) that he had ulterior motives. Any reader of the post who thinks otherwise is just reading meaning into my words that was not there.
Anytime Max History comes up with evidence from another source that is contradicted by Lina Heydrich's account, he sides with Lina Heydrich. Why? Does he have any other sources for some of the claims that she's made, other than her account, which can't be confirmed anyway? If you all would like me to elaborate, I gladly will in a future post. For now, I don't have the book at hand and my internet connection is shoddy. So I'll get back to you all in a couple of days.
This does deserve further elaboration. There are several parts of the book in which Max History refutes evidence that conflicts with his view by merely referring to Lina Heydrich's account. For example, when he refutes allegations that Reinhard Heydrich had had leanings towards Nazism during his naval years, he doesn't even bother to mention the independent and neutral sources that claim that he had made comments favorable to Hitler, and simply refers to Lina Heydrich's account. Max History also takes at face value claims and quotes from Lina Heydrich's book that cannot be backed up by outside sources (such as his alleged remark to his wife, while the Kristallnacht events were in full session, attributing the events to Goebbels: "... a de-escalation of aggression against the Jews will be impossible. Why did Goebbels do it?"). He qualifies other personal accounts, like Walter Shellenburg's and Felix Kersten's, but hasn't a single such warning about Lina Heydrich's account. His use of her memoirs is reckless and lopsided, and while she may have been in the best position to testify about her husband's private life, what she says must be taken with a grain of salt, as much of it has not been backed up by outside sources and her memoirs, not being a work of scholarship but merely a personal account, did not have to honor considerations of historical accuracy.

As a side note, many mainstream historians, when they publish historical accounts, have a foreword in which not only the author's sources but the possible biases of the author's sources are described, so that the reader may "steer between the shoals."
Even though he described his sources at the beginning of the book, half of those aren't even listed in the endnotes. The endnotes are the sparsest I've ever seen.
Sorry. That was a typo, and a genuine mistake on my part. I meant the sources that Max Williams lists in a comprehensive bibliography at the end of the book. Half of those are not in the endnotes. This issue says a lot about poor documentation.
He calls Lina Heydrich's account "an excellent historical work." It's not. It's not even meant to be scholarly. It's just a personal account.
That also was a genuine mistake on my part. I have already apologized for it, and should not be forced to dwell on it.
In truth, I haven't run across any account of RH that is "unbiased." One just needs to be skilled at reading between the lines and filtering the bias out, not relying on one or two historical accounts and discounting any evidence solely because it conflicts with those accounts.
Max History said in his reply to me that "reading between the lines" makes the reader come to conclusions that might not necessarily be the truth. On the contrary, any reputable historian would say that "reading between the lines" and "filtering out biases" are essential tools of their profession. These are also skills any educated reader should have. I apologize for saying so, but I am rather insulted by Max History's assertion that I should not use these skills. I also find the tone of his posts very patronizing. Contrary to what he reccommends, I refuse to take sources at face value.

Misty Dawn Bright

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Annelie
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Re: Lina Heydrich & Max Williams biography of Heydrich

#52

Post by Annelie » 13 Aug 2012, 20:46

There has been mention of Lina Heydrich's book, of which I have owned for some years now.
Being that its all in Deutsch and I am not able to read it,
I am intriqued to get some idea of what it contains?

Can anyone give a synopsis of what it contains?
I am guessing not much or there would have been some detailed
mention of these things I am guessing.

Thanks.

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Re: Lina Heydrich & Max Williams biography of Heydrich

#53

Post by J. Duncan » 14 Aug 2012, 21:28

The book is full of apologetics from what I've read in other sources (various bios of Heydrich). Totally ignored by translators. One book I really wish someone would translate is "Lucifer Ante Portas" by Rudolf Diels. They translated Hans Bernd Gisevius but totally ignored Diel's very informative book. When I say "they" I have no idea (I'm frustrated with myself for having never learned german)..I guess whoever is an english speaking historian who would not feel this book is worth translating.

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Re: Lina Heydrich & Max Williams biography of Heydrich

#54

Post by jimk3758 » 23 Aug 2014, 07:00

In volume 2 on page 235 Max Williams writes about the rare Heydrich block memorial stamp sheet. I quote:

"Special printing number one was reserved for Hitler whilst number two went to Lina Heydrich. Karl Herman Frank also arranged for Himmler to receive a special printing, possible number three, contained in a silk portfolio".

I would like to know please Max your reference to this information as it is not provided in the book.

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