Forgotten Soldier - a good read, but a true one?

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Michael Dorosh
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Re: Latest of The Forgotten Soldier Movie

#241

Post by Michael Dorosh » 16 Feb 2009, 16:00

Doug Nash wrote:Ummm....Pee Wee Herman?
Sounds about right... actually, if the screenplay writer can smooth over some of the inaccuracies of the book (the reason I mention Rudel), it may be a case where fictionalizing a true story actually makes the grognards happier...

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Doug Nash
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Re: Latest of The Forgotten Soldier Movie

#242

Post by Doug Nash » 16 Feb 2009, 16:41

Well, with Mr. Verhoeven, you never know what you're going to get. He has had some blockbuster movies in the past over here in the US - such as Total Recall, Robocop and Starship Troopers. All were big hits in the US. His Soldier of Orange and Black Book did well in Europe - so there you have the action movie director Paul Verhoeven and the nuanced, insightful Paul Verhoeven - wonder which one will direct TFS? I have read the screenplay and it's quite faithful to the book, but I know how things change once you take them from the screenplay and slap them up on a storyboard and then have the director translate that. Guess we'll have to see.
Cheers,
Doug Nash


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Re: Latest of The Forgotten Soldier Movie

#243

Post by Michael Dorosh » 16 Feb 2009, 17:02

Doug Nash wrote:Well, with Mr. Verhoeven, you never know what you're going to get. He has had some blockbuster movies in the past over here in the US - such as Total Recall, Robocop and Starship Troopers. All were big hits in the US. His Soldier of Orange and Black Book did well in Europe - so there you have the action movie director Paul Verhoeven and the nuanced, insightful Paul Verhoeven - wonder which one will direct TFS? I have read the screenplay and it's quite faithful to the book, but I know how things change once you take them from the screenplay and slap them up on a storyboard and then have the director translate that. Guess we'll have to see.
Cheers,
Doug Nash
Great point.

I liked Starship Troopers originally, the first time I saw it. I thought it had interesting things to say about the nature of fascism and duty and war in general. Looking back it just seems heavy handed and is now little more than a mawkish splatter-picture - and there is a very real potential for Forgotten Soldier to be the same thing if handled unsubtly, but I would not criticize any movie before seeing it. Since you've seen the script, you're in a far better position to judge the potential than I am. Perhaps you can comment on that aspect.

I tried to read the book (Starship Troopers) a few years ago, incidentally, and it may have coloured my views on the movie. I literally couldn't finish it. It seems to be recommended highly and mainly by extreme right wing iconoclasts who think it is a descriptive for society rather than a left wing satire of fascism or simply what it is - as Anthony Boucher said - a book in which Heinlein "forgot to insert a story." :D

I remember being in the Army Cadets at age 15 or so and watching my fellow, younger, comrades bragging about how being in uniform gave them the "right" to shoplift from the 7-11 or ride public transit for free. I honestly think that kind of person looks to Starship Troopers not for literary value, but to validate their way of thinking. The movie is now the same kind of idealized blueprint for people inclined to believe that service in the military is the only kind of legitimate service to society - a notion I don't agree with, and I have 22 years in uniform, albeit part time, and none of it operational.

What Starship Troopers was for the right-wing, Forgotten Soldier may be for the leftists among the military history set, in a way. There is no notion of military necessity in any of the actions in the book that I recall; no brave men doing brave deeds (compare to Nowotny's book on his experiences in the GD and as a POW, or for that matter, to Rudel's propagandist tripe in STUKA PILOT), just sacrifice and death. It would have read much differently had Sajer been a German, of course, but that's what makes his book so unique, and his lens such a different one.

But is the lens distorted, and is the story worth telling, in the end?

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Re: Latest of The Forgotten Soldier Movie

#244

Post by Michael Dorosh » 16 Feb 2009, 17:13

But is the lens distorted, and is the story worth telling, in the end?
Oh, I don't mean to reopen the "is Sajer" fictional debate with that question. What I mean is this: does it do much good to examine the German Army from the perspective of an Alsatian? It's a bit like making a movie about a soldier in a Nisei battalion and saying "this was the U.S. Army in 1944." His experiences would be true to what he saw and felt, but as an aggregate of the entire experience of all the soldiers, it wouldn't be true. But the question then becomes - "so what?"

In the case of the Germans, my "so what" is that there are so few movies that even address what life was like for the "average" German, and almost none have been convincing or accurate, that this may be another missed opportunity. But of course, there is no requirement for film-makers to take that burden on - they simply write, produce and sell what they think can entertain and make money.

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Re: Latest of The Forgotten Soldier Movie

#245

Post by Doug Nash » 16 Feb 2009, 17:21

Michael,
Good points - but having a distorted lens sure hasn't stopped people from making movies in the past, as we all know.
It will be very interesting to see how this comes out, to say the least - will it be a survivor's coming of age story in WW2, a la Europa, Europa? Will it be thoroughly modern in its attitudes? Will it try to capture the mood of the time & coming to terms with the past a la The Reader? For most people, WWII is ancient history - so Verhoeven has a daunting task ahead of him - he can make a shoot-'em up, or try to discern what are the key lessons of the book that may still be relevant today. Will he try to show that youthful, idealistic sacrifice for a rotten cause is an enormous moral and physical waste? I have no idea as to how he'll approach it, only that he very much wanted to do the film, as there was something about the story that captured his imagination. I fuess that will all come out when he gets interviewed about it.
Cheers,
Doug

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Re: Latest of The Forgotten Soldier Movie

#246

Post by Michael Dorosh » 16 Feb 2009, 17:30

Doug Nash wrote:Michael,
Good points - but having a distorted lens sure hasn't stopped people from making movies in the past, as we all know.
It will be very interesting to see how this comes out, to say the least - will it be a survivor's coming of age story in WW2, a la Europa, Europa? Will it be thoroughly modern in its attitudes? Will it try to capture the mood of the time & coming to terms with the past a la The Reader? For most people, WWII is ancient history - so Verhoeven has a daunting task ahead of him - he can make a shoot-'em up, or try to discern what are the key lessons of the book that may still be relevant today. Will he try to show that youthful, idealistic sacrifice for a rotten cause is an enormous moral and physical waste? I have no idea as to how he'll approach it, only that he very much wanted to do the film, as there was something about the story that captured his imagination. I fuess that will all come out when he gets interviewed about it.
Cheers,
Doug
Great response. I'll go you one better though - was it really a rotten cause? We know it was. You know it was. The movie goers know it was. I know for a fact Verhoeven knows it was.

Did Sajer?

It's the question left burning, and I think the most fascinating question of all - yet most movies simply proceed from the assumption that it has been answered, in 1945. That's what makes it so daunting. I don't think Verhoeven is brave enough to undo 60 years of smugness on that score. But then again, why should he be? I expect he will take the conventional route, and while the audience is secure in the knowledge that the Germans were fighting a rotten cause, so will the Guy Sajer in the movie be so endowed with such knowledge. The reality was more subtle.

Hey, if Günter Grass himself could be confused enough to join the SS and run a machine gun in the name of Folk and Fatherland, I have to believe there really was some moral ambiguity before everything collapsed at the end.

But what the greatest thing this movie can do - is to get people talking about these subjects again.

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Re: Latest of The Forgotten Soldier Movie

#247

Post by bil » 16 Feb 2009, 20:12

I think it can also be taken from the perspective of ANY soldier not really sure of the cause,feeling on the outside,not fully accepted,and just trying to survive while being swept along.One does not have to be an Alsatial in the German army to be in that position.I am hopeful that the movie can get the 'feeling' of the book without turning into a Hollywood special effects extravaganza. ---bil

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Re: Latest of The Forgotten Soldier Movie

#248

Post by LWD » 16 Feb 2009, 20:22

A short OT response to a long mostly OT post
Michael Dorosh wrote:.... It seems to be recommended highly and mainly by extreme right wing iconoclasts who think it is a descriptive for society rather than a left wing satire of fascism or simply what it is - as Anthony Boucher said - a book in which Heinlein "forgot to insert a story." :D
...
Sarcasm only works when it hits the mark. Your review was off on so many points it's not worth detailing them all especially in this thread.

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Re: Latest of The Forgotten Soldier Movie

#249

Post by Michael Dorosh » 16 Feb 2009, 20:40

LWD wrote:A short OT response to a long mostly OT post
Michael Dorosh wrote:.... It seems to be recommended highly and mainly by extreme right wing iconoclasts who think it is a descriptive for society rather than a left wing satire of fascism or simply what it is - as Anthony Boucher said - a book in which Heinlein "forgot to insert a story." :D
...
Sarcasm only works when it hits the mark. Your review was off on so many points it's not worth detailing them all especially in this thread.
Sarcasm only works when intended as sarcasm. I was deadly serious. Starship Troopers has been seized on by right-wings as a descriptive for society. What they don't understand was that it works better as a parody of the things it is supposedly idealizing. You're obviously one of the Heinlein fans - I suspect Boucher and yourself would have vastly different tastes in literature. Vive la différence!

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Re: Latest of The Forgotten Soldier Movie

#250

Post by LWD » 16 Feb 2009, 22:18

Michael Dorosh wrote:
LWD wrote:A short OT response to a long mostly OT post
Michael Dorosh wrote:.... It seems to be recommended highly and mainly by extreme right wing iconoclasts who think it is a descriptive for society rather than a left wing satire of fascism or simply what it is - as Anthony Boucher said - a book in which Heinlein "forgot to insert a story." :D
...
Sarcasm only works when it hits the mark. Your review was off on so many points it's not worth detailing them all especially in this thread.
Sarcasm only works when intended as sarcasm. I was deadly serious. Starship Troopers has been seized on by right-wings as a descriptive for society. What they don't understand was that it works better as a parody of the things it is supposedly idealizing. You're obviously one of the Heinlein fans - I suspect Boucher and yourself would have vastly different tastes in literature. Vive la différence!
Still OT but the smilie kind of implied sarcasm. There clearly was a story to Starship Troopers at least the book version. However the government was far from fascist. I guess you can say it was right wing as it was one that encouraged individual responsibility and recognised that along with our "rights" we inherit duties. But the book is well liked in circles that could hardly be considered right wing. You are the first I've heard to consider it a paradoy; I see little to support that opinion.

Getting vaguely back on topic the director chose to portray the society as somewhat fascist when it wasn't at all part of the book. At least with The Forgotten Soldier he won't have to make substantive changes in that regard.

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Re: Latest of The Forgotten Soldier Movie

#251

Post by Michael Dorosh » 16 Feb 2009, 22:33

LWD wrote:Still OT but the smilie kind of implied sarcasm. There clearly was a story to Starship Troopers at least the book version.
Not to be argumentative, but I'll try and tie this back to The Forgotten Soldier. I perceived very little story in Heinlein's book to be honest. As I indicated, I couldn't get all the way through it (though I do recall there not really being much of an ending so perhaps I did after all) - just another charge into the bugs - On the Bounce, trooper! Maybe that was the theme, I don't know. It may have been an entire collection of themes and observations, but as for story - I don't think so. And Sajer does much of the same. I can see why Verhoeven would be drawn to both books, in all honesty, and perhaps this is why we're discussing both in the same thread?
However the government was far from fascist. I guess you can say it was right wing as it was one that encouraged individual responsibility and recognised that along with our "rights" we inherit duties. But the book is well liked in circles that could hardly be considered right wing. You are the first I've heard to consider it a paradoy; I see little to support that opinion.


I am probably projecting my experience with the movie onto the book, as you correctly point out; certainly the movie was over the top in its statements, with the limbless soldier proclaiming in effect "the Mobile Infantry made me the man I am today" (ha, ha) and the Gestapo Gestalt running throughout.
Getting vaguely back on topic the director chose to portray the society as somewhat fascist when it wasn't at all part of the book. At least with The Forgotten Soldier he won't have to make substantive changes in that regard.
But the Heer was far from fascist; in fact, in many ways the German Army was far more egalitarian than the British Army. Every platoon commander - a mere lieutenant - in the British Army had his own servant! In the German Army, a platoon commander was far more often than not a non-commissioned officer, and even if commissioned, had no servant, few privileges while serving at the front beyond perhaps a tin plate to eat off of rather than a mess tin, and was often on a first name basis with his "good comrades".

It will be fascinating to see if Verhoeven will choose to portray this. In the film STALINGRAD we saw hints of it, but von Witzland the "good comrade" was painted as a criminal for being the type of officer that seems fairly common in many post-war accounts by veterans and unit historians.

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Re: Latest of The Forgotten Soldier Movie

#252

Post by LWD » 17 Feb 2009, 00:42

Michael Dorosh wrote:...
But the Heer was far from fascist;
Fascism is a political system. I don't think it makes sense to even talk about militaries as being fascist. However the Heer served Nazi Germany which was fascist.
in fact, in many ways the German Army was far more egalitarian than the British Army. Every platoon commander - a mere lieutenant - in the British Army had his own servant!
I'm not at all sure what that has to do with fascism.

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Re: Latest of The Forgotten Soldier Movie

#253

Post by Michael Dorosh » 17 Feb 2009, 01:23

LWD wrote:Fascism is a political system. ...
I'm not at all sure what that has to do with fascism.
Perhaps this will help. I apologize; I thought your understanding of the word might be broader.

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/fascist
a tendency toward or actual exercise of strong autocratic or dictatorial control <early instances of army fascism and brutality — J. W. Aldridge>
I meant it in the generally accepted colloquial sense of the word- authoritarian, in other words. I apologize for confusing you. I thought by the context you might be able to grasp the meaning, but apparently not.

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Re: Latest of The Forgotten Soldier Movie

#254

Post by LWD » 17 Feb 2009, 03:46

I'm still not sure why having servants would make the British army more "Fascist". Of course using the broad definition as you do one could argue that all armies are "Fascist" to some extent and the Red army would be one of the most "Fascist". I'm don't think using the term in that sense is a good idea as it is both subject to being taken in the wrong way and also a fairly emotion laden term for many.

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Re: Latest of The Forgotten Soldier Movie

#255

Post by cha » 17 Feb 2009, 05:16

Please do not get another Forgotten Soldier Movie thread closed AGAIN. Try and keep it on topic here I like when Doug keeps us informed on this matter.

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