Germ. vacuum bombs vs. Soviet chemical weapons

[Grellber]

So finaly sorted. One thing i guess skorzeny got wrong -they never stopped using the stuka Zu fuss(?)

[Marcel]

Hello,

there is another source that mentions this incident, don't know its reliabilty. Hope I don't add further to the confusion.

R. Lusar- Die deutschen Waffen und Geheimwaffen des 2. Weltkrieges und ihre Weiterentwicklung
(German weapons and secret weapons of WWII and their subsequent development)
T. F. LEHMANNS VERLAG MÜNCHEN, 1956

In the chapter Sonderwaffen (Special weapons) this author mentions a 'Flüssige Luft-Werfer' (Liquid air thrower): "Bei Beginn des Rußlandfeldzuges verfügten die Deutschen über eine Waffe, die größtes Aufsehen erregte. Es waren Minengefäße, die mit flüssiger Luft gefüllt waren und die eine furchtbare Wirkung ausübten. Nach dem Einsatz am 16. Juni 1942 bei Tim am Dnjepr forderte die Sowjet-Union die Einstellung ihrer Verwendung und drohte im Falle der Ablehnung mit dem Gaskrieg."
I'll try to translate: "At the start of the march into Russia the german army had a remarkable weapon. It consisted of mine-vessels, filled with liquid air that had a terrible effect. After their use on june 16, 1942 near Tim on the Dnepr the Soviet Union demanded that use of this weapon should cease threatening to wage a gas-war if their demand was denied."
Later in the same chapter the author again uses his term 'Minengefäße' to indicate weapons fired from either Nebelwerfer or wood or iron crates.
That's it, no further info on this weapon unfortunately.

Greetings,
Marcel

[Maxschnauzer]

It's hard to see how "liquid air" or more likely liquid nitrogen, which must be stored cryogenically, could be delivered as an effective weapon but I suppose it's possible. In any case it's effects would be similar to frostbite upon skin contact or if delivered in an enclosed space possible asphixiation due to hypoxia (liquified air would not have this effect). It would disperse into the atmosphere quite quickly though meaning the projectiles need to be right on target.

[Helmut0815]

Unless there is proven evidence I strongly doubt that such weapons ever existed.
A shell or mine containing liquid air/nitrogen/oxygen would have to be filled immediate before it's fired. Mobile cryogenic facilities for the production of the liquid gases would have to be fielded directly at the front, have anyone here ever heard of this?
And then an exploding shell or mine containing some litres of liquid air would have almost no effect aside from direct hits as the content would evaporate immediately. Some drops of liquid nitrogen on the skin do not cause much harm, I have experienced that often enough during my laboratory work. Asphyxiation due to hypoxia is almost impossible, in laboratory we've poured accidentally some litres on the floor and nothing happened.

The whole matter sounds like a myth to me, same category as "vacuum bombs" or "high pressure shells", spreaded by people who are totally clueless about physical chemistry.


regards


Helmut

[peeved]

Waffen und Geheimwaffen des deutschen Heeres 1933-1945, Band 1, pp.130-131 has something on German fuel-air explosives. Am no native speaker so will just quote the relevant passages. Apparently used from 1942 onwards so probably not related to the Cholm incident in '41.

Ein völlig neues Pioniergerät zur Sprengung fester Anlagen war unter der Bezeichnung »Schlaganfall« entwickelt worden. Hier wurde ein Gasgemisch in die Festungswerke eingeblasen und dann zur Detonation gebracht. Man ging von den im Bergbau gefürchteten »Schlagenden Wettern« aus und erprobte zuerst Gemische auf der Methan- bzw. Wasserstoffbasis. Es war aber hier schwierig, eine kontrollierbare Zündung zu erreichen. Versuche mit dem aus Kalziumkarbid gewonnenen Acetylen führten ebenfalls in zahlreichen Fällen zur Selbstzündung. Die beste Wirkung zeigte eine Mischung aus 80 Prozent Kohleoxyd mit 20 Prozent Äthylen. Beim Einsatz wurde das Gas in Flaschen in die Nähe des zu sprengenden Festungswerkes gefahren, mittels einer kleinen Hohlladung ein Loch in die Panzerung gesprengt und das Gas eingeblasen. Die Zündung erfolgte dann elektrisch durch eine mit einer Sonde eingeführten Glühkerze.

1942 wurde die erste Pioniereinheit mit dieser, nun Taifun genannten Waffe ausgerüstet; sie verfügte über 500 derartiger Gasflaschen. Ein Einsatz gegen die untereinander verbundenen Kellerräume in der Innenstadt von Charkow mißlang, es konnte nicht die erforderliche hohe Konzentration erzielt werden. Im Herbst 1943 erfolgten einige Einsätze auf der Halbinsel Kertsch mit mäßigem Erfolg. Der Gegner betrachtete die Verwendung dieser Waffe als einen Kampfstoffeinsatz. Generaloberst Jaenecke, damals der Oberbefehlshaber der 17. Armee, wurde deshalb von den Russen zum Tode verurteilt. Er wurde aber später begnadigt und im Oktober 1955 aus der Gefangenschaft entlassen. Im März 1945 gab es noch eine Sondereinheit mit Taifun-Geräten bei der Heeres-Sturmpionier-Brigade 46.

Markus

[StefanSiverud]

Waffen und Geheimwaffen des deutschen Heeres 1933-1945, Band 1, pp.130-131 has something on German fuel-air explosives. Am no native speaker so will just quote the relevant passages. Apparently used from 1942 onwards so probably not related to the Cholm incident in '41.

Ein völlig neues...

Markus

Above quote translated here: http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic. ... 11#p939011

[Maxschnauzer]

Unless there is proven evidence I strongly doubt that such weapons ever existed.
A shell or mine containing liquid air/nitrogen/oxygen would have to be filled immediate before it's fired. Mobile cryogenic facilities for the production of the liquid gases would have to be fielded directly at the front, have anyone here ever heard of this?
And then an exploding shell or mine containing some litres of liquid air would have almost no effect aside from direct hits as the content would evaporate immediately. Some drops of liquid nitrogen on the skin do not cause much harm, I have experienced that often enough during my laboratory work. Asphyxiation due to hypoxia is almost impossible, in laboratory we've poured accidentally some litres on the floor and nothing happened.

The whole matter sounds like a myth to me, same category as "vacuum bombs" or "high pressure shells", spreaded by people who are totally clueless about physical chemistry.


regards


Helmut

Hello Helmut,
I would have commented sooner but am just now getting back online due to the typhoon which passed through here on 16 Jul. I generally agree with what you say but suggest that in a closed space such as a bunker or cave couldn't LN2 if effectively delivered under pressure e.g. from a flamethrower-like device, displace the oxygen percentage sufficiently to induce hypoxia or at least incapacitate he victims by nitrogen narcosis?

[steverodgers801]

Its simple if such a weapon had existed, there is no doubt Hitler would have used it.

[stellung]

Hitler had Tabun, Sarin and Soman and did not use them. Such a simple conclusion cannot be reached. A fuel-air bomb definitely existed and could work at ground level. Dr. Zippermayr tested this. He was interrogated by the Americans on 18 March 1949. His initial interrogation occurred on 15 May 1945.

[LWD]

The problem is fuel air bombs are not simple. Getting them to detonate to near maximum effect is non trivial and didn't really occur until well post war from what I've read. That said fuel air explosions definitely occured pre World War 2 and during the war although they were not always intended. It would not surprise me at all to know that the Germans were working on one. That they had one that worked reliably would however.

[Maxschnauzer]

I agree that fuel air bombs were no doubt operationally premature. I would also say that about "vacuum bombs" whatever that means. To me it implies creating a negative pressure in a closed space or at the least possibly only starving the atmosphere of Oxygen. I don't see these sort of weapons being feasible back then except maybe for some flame thower like device delivering enough pressurized nitrogen into a bunker or cave and creating hypoxia or nitrogen narcosis inside. N2 is not a poisonous gas so I doubt if it was considered under the Geneva conventions. But I don't know of it being used or or even being considered.

[LWD]

My impression was that "vacuum bombs" were essentially fuel air explosives. The former can cause a significant overpressure wave that creates a low pressure (vacuum) in it's wake. I could be wrong on that though.

[ChristopherPerrien]

Coal-dust and methane - German Secret Weapons -Brian Ford-Ballatine Books-197?

[stg 44]

The problem is fuel air bombs are not simple. Getting them to detonate to near maximum effect is non trivial and didn't really occur until well post war from what I've read. That said fuel air explosions definitely occured pre World War 2 and during the war although they were not always intended. It would not surprise me at all to know that the Germans were working on one. That they had one that worked reliably would however.

AFAIK post-war the Soviets did experiment and determined that they needed Aluminum/Magnesium powder to get the bomb to work properly. So if the theory about a German coal dust bomb were true, the material would not have been very good, nor effective.