First atomic bomb was German !?!

Discussions on the equipment used by the Axis forces, apart from the things covered in the other sections. Hosted by Juha Tompuri
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Re: First atomic bomb was German !?!

#646

Post by South » 09 Jun 2014, 10:28

Good morning Tiger B,

Welcome to the forum. I'm not a moderator but will still mention we have a rule to avoid contemporary matters if "politically charged" such as mentioning Ukraine.

........

If the elaborate German atomic project had document security so through, it's difficult to believe German subs had plain text related documents ("U234 cargo manifest" and related references). I spent > 20 years trying to learn about the SS Mayaguez manifest in vain......and the Germans were better at this type of security........

Re: "Those bombs were then dropped on Japanese cities who[se] civilians could not and were not part of the war effort...";

This is a history site. Please accept that some civilians were part of the war effort.

The better question is why did the US avoid occupation of Czech. Had Gen Patton been assigned to the ATO instead of his historic location, the issue still went beyond personalities.

I am an American and occupied space in American schools. I was taught otherwise about the atomic bombings of Japan. Was taught 3 themes:

1. The atomic attacks were needed to end the war with mimimal US casualties. Suicidal defense of the Japanese homeland was pushed to the hilt.

2. To demonstrate to the nearby Red Army in the Maritime oblasts about potential consequences concerning post-war activities by Moscow.

3. That the US was a racist nation. This theme was taught as part of the Bertrand Russell "philosophy".

I believe US economic warfare started well prior to the Great War.


Warm regards,

Bob

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Re: First atomic bomb was German !?!

#647

Post by wm » 09 Jun 2014, 19:58

As the bomb was initially destined for Berlin it couldn't be racist. A non-racist, unprejudiced bomb - Russell should have liked that.


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Re: First atomic bomb was German !?!

#648

Post by David Thompson » 09 Jun 2014, 21:36

This is starting to turn into a rubbish thread, so I've closed it. This should allow the participants to cool off and let me clear out the last several pages of unsourced posts containing personal remarks.

If you haven't gotten the message yet, gentlemen, we do not permit personal remarks about other posters here. We run this forum for our readers, not as an ego joust for ill-mannered posters. Our readers are not interested in what Dame Rumor has to say, but in verifiable facts.

And finally, if you want other posters to comply with our rules, set the example yourself. We're not interested in your personalities; we're interested in your knowledge.

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Re: First atomic bomb was German !?!

#649

Post by williamjpellas » 23 Jan 2015, 21:28

Andreas, it is now fairly certain that among the various WWII German / Nazi advanced weapons R&D laboratories, Diebner's group was probably the furthest down the path to a functioning nuclear weapon of some sort. I say "probably" because there is one other candidate for these "honors", and that would be the effort led by Manfred von Ardenne. More on that in a moment.

Regarding the comment as you posted it here, it may in truth be that Diebner's work did not produce "an atomic bomb" as such, but it probably did produce at least a couple of test detonations of some kind of "nuclear device". There is more specific information to post about this, and I think I did actually put some of it in this thread---about 20 pages back! 8O No time to dig through everything just now. But for anyone interested, the information I am speaking of here is found in the Physics World article, "New Light on Hitler's Bomb". It is easily found via a websearch, though it might be behind a membership wall.


Anyway, Diebner's design was a sort-of hybrid approach that would apparently have been a very dirty bomb that still produced some blast effect, if nothing like the true city killers built by the Americans and pursued by the Japanese in their Riken Institute project. Assuming that the trickle of reports from various sources that have come down to us are more or less accurate, I would guesstimate that we're talking about a blast yield of a couple of KT at best---probably less---and a lot of hard radiation and localized heat. Enough to do significant damage to a massed formation on a battlefield, and a more powerful terror weapon than what the V-2's were normally armed with, but not enough for a strategic strike unless they could be produced in some numbers and successfully delivered on target more or less all at once. Say, 50 or 100 of them landing on London within a couple of days or maybe a week, that sort of thing.


Still, it appears that Germany had some kind of limited but real nuclear capability at the tail end of the war. Whether they could realistically have delivered any of these devices on target is another question. Nevertheless, they appear to have successfully tested something along the lines of a nuclear weapon in one form or another. The question then becomes, did this capability result in some political leverage with the US and Britain, and was Stalin correct (for once) to suspect some kind double dealing by his erstwhile Allies and soon to be Cold War enemies?

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Re: First atomic bomb was German !?!

#650

Post by stellung » 04 Feb 2015, 06:18

The US National Archives

Extract from BIOS (British Intelligence Objectives Sub-Committee) Final Report 142(g) "Information Obtained from Targets of Opportunity in the Sonthofen Area, (HMSO London) detailing evidence of a 4.5km radius of forest flattened above Starnbergersee SW of Munich with destruction out to 12.5 kilometres, BIOS target numbers C28/8.211, C25/549, C6/137, C30/338, C4/268, C22/2182, C21/601, pp.4-5.

ONI Report “German Technical Aid to Japan; a Survey, dated June 15, 1945, Chapter 14, page 177 re transfer of German atomic bomb technology to Japan in 1944.

OSS report from Switzerland A-44 316, report 5985 of 7 November 1944 disclosing German possession of nuclear weapons.
Last edited by stellung on 04 Feb 2015, 20:29, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: First atomic bomb was German !?!

#651

Post by Helmut0815 » 04 Feb 2015, 20:03

stellung wrote:The following article may be of interest:

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article ... -mine.html
Just rumors. It has never been confirmed that any nuclear waste was deposited in the Asse II mine in war times.

From that article:
More than 126,000 barrels of nuclear material that Hitler planned to use in an atom bomb programme now lies rotting over 2,000 feet below ground in an old salt mine
The 126,000 barrels in question were stored from 1967 to 1978 and they do contain nuclear waste from postwar research reactors as well as from nuclear power plants, see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Asse_II_mine#Inventory
The author of that article seems to be totally clueless.


regards


Helmut

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Re: First atomic bomb was German !?!

#652

Post by Michael Kenny » 04 Feb 2015, 20:10

Helmut0815 wrote:
stellung wrote:The following article may be of interest:

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article ... -mine.html
Just rumors. It has never been confirmed that any nuclear waste was deposited in the Asse II mine in war times.
The paper (Daily Mail) is a UK low quality right-wing tabloid that has a thing for sensational WW2 'revelations'. It has a long history or running headline-grabbing historical fiction posing as news. Check how it trails the latest Hastings book. It picks some small statement and distorts it into a claim that (for instance) Australian soldiers were cowards in WW2.



http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article ... TINGS.html

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/artic ... pirit.html

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article ... Ypres.html


http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article ... g-off.html

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Re: First atomic bomb was German !?!

#653

Post by stellung » 04 Feb 2015, 20:30

Daily Mail article reference removed.


Stellung

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Re: First atomic bomb was German !?!

#654

Post by Tiger B » 05 Feb 2015, 00:30

Ironmachine wrote:
williamjpellas wrote:2) The Zinsser Affadavit---interrogation of Luftwaffe pilot who said he saw a mushroom cloud from a German atomic test.
The problem is that the Luftwaffe pilot could not know if that was an atomic test or a conventional one, because any sufficiently large explosion will produce a mushroom cloud.
Atomic Bombs, especially unboosted, Generation 1, weapons which typically fission less than 20% of their total fuel before dissembly, leave an inordinate amount of 'unburnt' radiologics in their wake. These decay products rapidly cook off, consuming themselves in flashes of Cherenkov radiation from the deep violet to the high UV and are not typically seen in (B&W = monotone) films from the upper side of atomic detonations solely because the soot and other conventional combustion products in the uplift are _lighter_, and thus rise faster and higher, as black or grey obscurants, within the Rayleigh Taylor column.

But from the underside, they are quite visible, for some time after the initial flash.

The question then becomes what a /Flak Rocket/ expert was doing there, in an He-111, in late 1944, when Allied Air Superiority extended over much of Central Germany and availability of aviation fuel was at crisis levels.

The obvious conclusion might be that a Fohn or similar anti aircraft rocket projector was being used, as indeed small sounding rockets were in the U.S., as calibration aids to measure size and drift of the mushroom cloud against their contrails.

This means that Zinnsler was not there as an incidental observer but a dedicated one. It also means that his knowledge of the size of the detonation cloud would be informed by prebrief and pictures. Something he would not want to highlight because everyone from U-Boat skippers to Kurt Diebner himself, who were intimately involved with atomic related materials, missions or platforms in wartime Germany had a disturbing tendency to either commit 'suicide' or die from previously undiagnosed heart conditions.

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Re: First atomic bomb was German !?!

#655

Post by Tiger B » 05 Feb 2015, 03:03

Good Day South,

Thanks for your welcome.
If the elaborate German atomic project had document security so through, it's difficult to believe German subs had plain text related documents ("U234 cargo manifest" and related references). I spent > 20 years trying to learn about the SS Mayaguez manifest in vain......and the Germans were better at this type of security........
Not at all. Contiguity of communications would have been very intermittent at best with the most of the SS involved with transporting key materials still 100-150nm SSE in the Ohrdruf or Pilsen areas. Amazingly, the UBoat Waffen had none of this special security function, thanks to Doenitz' inexplicable desire to see German subs exposed to HF/DF tracking as much as Ultra and this, coupled to service turf rivalries as well as transition between multiple civilian and governmental bureaucracies on the public transport network would have REQUIRED multiple material handling certificates of identification, destination and quantity declarations, to reach Kiel or Hamburg, both of which was under wartime emergency levels of restricted access with the Allies less than 50nm away.

Internalized supplier and report document security usually involves dual paper trails as front interfaces through which potentially dual use materials can vanish into government run depots, labs or university sponsored special process handling efforts (which maintain all paperwork on-site, under natsec specific secure handling conditions), only to reappear as sourceless GFE or 'Government Furnished Equipment' for final fabrication and installation on the system in question. This is, for instance, the manner in which the VLO surface treatments on the F-35 are handled with a separate shop for fabrication and a closed line area for installation, before application of the Top Coat protective sealer. But nobody tries to rail ship the resulting Joint Strike Fighter under "Poultry, One Dozen, Edwards Main Kitchen." labeling because it simply wouldn't work, at that scale, within the public mail system.
This is a history site. Please accept that some civilians were part of the war effort.
WWII took the lives of over 100 million people. The Russian casualty totals alone make this a certainty as Stalin's burn orders for all relevant records, solely to hide what a horrific LER had been sustained cannot hide the fact that it took them nearly fifty more years to get back to the (191) 200 million population levels Himmler attributed to them in the Poznan speech, just before the USSR broke up.

If we can blame the Nazis for 1 million deaths at Auschwitz as a war crime in pursuit of Lebensraum and ethnic dominance, we can blame the USAAF for an utterly unnecessary act of aerial barbarism at a time when the casualty lists for Operations Olympic and Coronet were only 25,000 on the first day, just as they had been, for Overlord.

This is the slippery slope upon which admission of the truth (Hitler, on the advice of Todt, explicitly forbade atomic development until Mid-'43 when Franco's spies among the Brasilero's made it clear that the U.S. program was going head full-apace) stands. Not just that the U.S. had no reason to use The Bomb on Japan when we knew from the Russians and the Swiss that the Japanese were desperately looking for a way out.

But that the Germans who were looking at calls from the like of Stimson and Marshall as well as Stalin, to plow them under, did have such impetus and yet refrained from doing so.

It won't matter that it was because someone was looking for a get out of jail free card. Indeed, if German material or actual weapons were used as both Farrell and Hydrick suggest, in trade for flight by top level Nazis; it will compound our guilt that we used 'Nazi Science' to enact 'Nazi Style' reprisal policies under conditions where victory was assured, without them.
The better question is why did the US avoid occupation of Czech. Had Gen Patton been assigned to the ATO instead of his historic location, the issue still went beyond personalities.
The Russians had more men under arms, more tubes of artillery and better tanks. Their airpower was about even, below 15,000ft and significantly worse, above 25. But our heavy bomber fleets were still largely in Britain and our tactical twins in the 2nd and IX ATAFs would have been severely mauled. The thought of fighting another war to evict the Soviets from Eastern Europe was likely beyond consideration from the moment Roosevelt made his stupid Unconditional Surrender announcement at Casablanca in 1943. The specific purpose of which was to keep the Germans locked in a death match in the East so long as the Russians wanted food, radios and trucks from us.
I am an American and occupied space in American schools. I was taught otherwise about the atomic bombings of Japan. Was taught 3 themes:

1. The atomic attacks were needed to end the war with mimimal US casualties. Suicidal defense of the Japanese homeland was pushed to the hilt.

2. To demonstrate to the nearby Red Army in the Maritime oblasts about potential consequences concerning post-war activities by Moscow.

3. That the US was a racist nation. This theme was taught as part of the Bertrand Russell "philosophy".
You don't need to minimize casualties of an invasion effort when simple blockade can be employed to avoid them altogether. The U.S. put together a stockpile of THOUSANDS of spray-tanks (based on droptanks) for use from tactical fighter bombers with which to dispense lethal gases if the war in Japan became truly a to-the-last-Banzai-charge defense after a landing. Those same tanks could spray defoliants which, together with bombed bridges and rail junctions would effectively deny Japan her rice crop as food distribution abilities to sustain minimum caloric intake.

Yet even if deaths proceeded to levels of 1,000 civilians per day, that's half a year before you are even close to the 120-150,000 prompt casualties from the two atomic blasts.

More importantly, the end of the starvation is -their's to choose- because it would be no skin off our hides if they wanted to be proud, so long as we were not engaged in active ground combat.

The cable landlines between Berlin and Tokyo were never cut, right through the end in Berlin. The Japanese, several times, made requests for specific materials that supposedly had even the Germans raising their eyebrows at the nature of the requests (before the endgame made 'cooperation' essential in a bombed out Germany...).

Add to this the supposed flights of Ju-290 and Bv-222 to Manchuria or even Korea and the likelihood that the Soviets 'just came across' (random chance) the Korean facility at Konan is _zero_. Which means that if you are not willing to fight the Soviets, in Europe, immediately, you face a double whammy:

1. The Russians got the best rocket and atomics people from The East where the majority of the rocket and atomic development facilities were relocated after Peenemunde and Hamburg. We got the technocrats and FACO assembly lines, whoopty doo. A fact proven by the number of mission days that Otto Skorzeny spent on the wrong side of the Oder/Neisse bridges, killing people and breaking things to keep them out of Soviet Hands. German people. German things.

2. The Dulles brothers also likely knew something was up. From German Resistance in general. From Wolfe in Italy. Voss at Skoda Pilsen. Or Kammler himself. And what they learned as OSS spooks with ears-of-President access was sufficiently dire to make Frantic Joe shuttle runs and attacks on the 20+ _cargo_ subs, well outside the convoy lanes, seem a worthwhile risk. This all but told the Germans that their internal communications networks (not just the Enigma but the T-5x Geheimschriebers of the national radiotelegraph and diplomatic corps) were compromised and since Ultra was so secret we didn't talk about it, openly, until the 1970s, it must have been one hell of a 'devil drives' necessity of exigent conditions.

In the face of which 'warning off' the Russians is pointless. Because Alsos, even if it had disguised Allied techint raiders in Germany (via Hodges' incursion into Aachen) by September/October 1944, would still not be able to reach the labs and development centers in Poland, Czechoslovakia or Austria, in time.

How valuable was the German atomic research from men like Von Ardenne?

Well, he describes being taken East to one of two materials processing labs being set up using the equipment from his Berlin labs and how beautiful it was 'out there in the wilderness'. He talks about meeting Stalin who complimented him on being such a clever fellow for restricting himself to fuel separation efforts "Or I should have had to never let you go." He talks about how all his friends at 'Site 2' were interrogated, repeatedly, (by Western Intelligence which knew just next to nothing at all) about what was going on at 'Site 1' when they started trickling back home in the early 1950s. And how they all said: "Ask Von Ardenne. He runs the show." And perhaps most importantly, given his award of a Stalin Prize and his utter refusal to discuss his actions in WWII when he was Hitler's chief civilian nuclear advisor after Todt died, Von Ardenne, of his time in Russia, said simply: "It was the most important work of my life." Even though, his efforts upon his return to East Germany saw him head up the national scientific technical committee and run the largest engineering firm in the country, _by himself_ keeping the GDR from turning into a scientific wasteland of lost excellence.

From this, ultimately, compare and contrast with known history. It took the Soviets, from a starting point behind the Japanese as a barely industrialized culture, less than five years to build the bomb. It took them 12 years to build and flight test an ICBM to put it on.

So.

I frankly have no appreciation for those who state that The Bomb discouraged the Soviets. Because the nature of atomic weapons from the U.S. perspective changed from a stick we would whop bad buys with at a distance on our own schedule to a vulnerability, based solely on the fact that Soviet divisions could take 60mph trains to Europe and we could only ride 20 knot RORO ships, the sinking of which with atomics would leave us with a choice between letting the Soviets have an easy victory over the /rest of/ Europe. And starting a reprisal war for already dead soldiers in which our civilian populations would be incinerated for NATO's benefit, as an exchange of atomics over the poles.

In no way did (bomber delivered) atomic weapons ever effect the Soviets this way. The USSR was simply too big to be spanned by bombers with free fall ordnance and the lead times would have given them plenty of time to start killing us all, even when the R-7 had to be fueled where it stood, for hours.

Finally, with regard to racism, the Japanese clearly thought they were racially superior to the massively larger (71 vs. 131 million) but 'soft' United States when no sane society, believing in the rough equality of all peoples, would have risked an Lanchestrian attritional war with us at such numeric disparity. Germany felt that way too. As had Great Britain.

Race is inevitably associated with nationalism on a go-team-go common identity level which, in the face of cultural indifference leading to fragmentation and implosion in all the 'multi cultural' societies of history (Greece, Egypt, Rome, Carthage, Carolingian, Soviet) does not seem quite the word-crime people think it is.

But it was not the U.S. who bombed Tokyo on December 7th. And it was not the U.S. that had lost some 2.5 million dead as of the beginning of 1945. Or which would lose another 500,000 to the U.S. firebombings in that year. The U.S. lost approximately 2,500 people at Pearl Harbor and had no cause to be -so angry- as to throw away another 400,000 lives in a war where our territorial integrity was never at risk. And our people never likely to be invaded or annihilated.

Thus it was _morally wrong_ to fail to take into account the measured response nature of 'one wrong does not make a right' that is based on Christian values inherent to our society (no, I am not, I'm an atheist).

Especially when the consequences of a failure to deploy the weapons (while we built up an inventory) would have been...nothing.

Mines and Torpedoes won WWII in the Pacific sir. Virtually every island we took was proof of our land-monkey succumbing to the same misunderstanding of the combat environment (islands are focal points of vulnerability, not sentry towers or logistics springboards) that the Japanese had similarly 'Inner/Outer Ring' suckered themselves into believing equated with real defense or territorial gains.

That we in fact did not remain on the majority of those islands, a single year after the war was over, shows how badly flawed our warfighter doctrine to that point had been. Retake Guam, activate War Plan Orange. Layer the islands with nested belts of subs, SAGs and aircraft. Fight the big fight, win and you have the only springboard you need for delivering airpower.

Everything subs+cruisers else could have been done from Australia or Diego Garcia with the simple intent of turning the Maru fleet into one-dive submarines with perhaps 1/10th the expenditure in moneys and resources and 1/100th the loss of lives.

THIS would have have made the U.S. superior to the Japanese. On a moral level.

You cannot say 'accept civilian casualties as an element of war' because the entire purpose behind the creation of specialist, elite, warrior classes, from gender role separation in prehistoric times through the Knight aristocracy of the Middle Ages, was always to protect the civilian, non combatant predominant, nature of society as mercantile commerce from the depredations of war. This includes nominal 'enemy' populations where you need a trusted partnership to establish and maintain trade. Europe lost /decades/ of advantaged trade by virtue of being 'saved' by American intervention. Japan, Korea and Taiwan only gained by assuming near slave labor levels of exchange rate in the export balance for a similar period.

The study of history is the study of what you got wrong so that you don't repeat the past into the present and deny your future. Look at the realities of Keynesian Economics and the destruction of our national base at all economic, ethnic and strategic independence levels with the consequential slump in cultural advancement that has resulted.

And then tell me that the outcome of fighting WWII as a 'Total War' but not a lasting moral victory, has not ultimately been to our detriment as a Nation.
I believe US economic warfare started well prior to the Great War.
Please, do tell. PM me if it is not appropriate to this topic.


Tiger B
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Re: First atomic bomb was German !?!

#656

Post by williamjpellas » 05 Feb 2015, 04:36

Tiger B, interesting posts. You are obviously well read in WWII history, though I don't share some of your conclusions, particularly where Japan is concerned. The topics of the Japanese and German atomic bomb projects are closely related, but I will refrain from going too far down the Japanese rabbit trail in this particular thread because it would derail this thread and/or be eliminated by the ops. But I invite you to come over to the Japanese Nuclear Weapons Program thread here: http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic. ... &start=375


Where I agree with you is in your summary of the evidence that the US and Britain (don't know how much the Soviets were in this particular loop, which is another topic) had, at minimum, good reason to believe that there was a credible threat of some kind of German nuclear weapons during the war itself. Although some of what you say is inferential, by Occam's Razor it is still compelling. Here I am referring specifically to what you say about the Atlantic Allies, by virtue of their antisubmarine effort aimed at wiping out the Germany to Japan nuclear logistics traffic (and maybe some other, related missions?) all but telegraphing the Germans that their most secret communications had been compromised.


Von Ardenne was treated like royalty by Stalin, who was surely one of the worst, most evil, murderous and paranoid dictators of all time, if not THE worst. And yet he gave Von Ardenne the Stalin Prize. What, exactly, did Von Ardenne produce for the USSR, and did he do the same thing, or something very similar, for Nazi Germany just a couple of years before? What was going on here, who knew about it, and how, and---perhaps most important of all---WHY is so much information about all of this still classified more than 70 years later? These are among the questions I am trying to answer.

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Re: First atomic bomb was German !?!

#657

Post by Tiger B » 05 Feb 2015, 18:06

William,
Tiger B, interesting posts.
Thank You, I've enjoyed reading yours as well, in this incredibly long thread.
You are obviously well read in WWII history, though I don't share some of your conclusions, particularly where Japan is concerned. Although the topics of the Japanese and German atomic bomb projects are closely related, I will refrain from going too far down the Japanese rabbit trail in this particular thread because it would derail this thread and/or be eliminated by the ops. But I invite you to come over to the Japanese Nuclear Weapons Program thread here:

viewtopic.php?f=65&t=5387&start=375
Most of my resources have been lost to me but I do my best. This is a most interesting topic as it spans the war and includes many points where it is clear that 'something should have clicked' (Heisenberg's Pineapple speech, the Uranverein tell Weitzsacker not to publish the criticality paper detailing a stable reaction by which a Machine could be made to create plutonium, Houtermann's paper on preliminary Fusion and the potential of boosting) in terms of motivation to an unconventional solution after the realization that things were not going to be won the old fashioned way, through a culmination of tactical victories in The East and Strategic Attrition in The West.

A condition reinforced by Hitler's own bigger-better-badder fetishism about weapons tech.

And then there are the discontiguities in timeline.

From the late 1800s more sources of Uranium were being desperately sought from Canada to Spain, the Balkans, Persia and Central Africa. All this for a material that was used, at most, in milligram quantities in glazes and dyes and well nigh on 50 years before Hahn and Strassman made their 'world changing discovery'?!

Indeed, the Congo was not the source of the richest deposits in the world, Joachimsthal, Czechoslovakia was and this was part of the reoccupation area that Hitler /insisted/, in 1937, be allowed ethnic self determination as a German province of the Reich, even though only about 40% of the population was Volksdeutsch under the loosest of grouping labels.

Buna 102 was an active project from late 1940. The Spanish link to the Manhattan District did not result in real progress again starting, even in the SS side of things, until 1943.

In that time 900 million Reichsmarks (2 Billion modern dollars) resulted in zip for critically needed synthetic rubber yet the plant is known to have routinely consumed more electricity than all of Berlin.

And then, just about the time Oakridge was cranking up, (mid 1944), they packed up the whole damn plant, to the last brick, and shipped it out. Keeping in mind that the Soviets would not take Auschwitz itself (right next door) until January 27th, 1945. A time when Germany itself, was overrun, end to end, with Allied fighter bomber and tactical bomber aircraft looking for anything that moved or was taller than two stories to blow up.

Groves brags about there being 1,130 tons of Uranium recovered from the mines at Stassfurt yet we KNOW that there are 3,500 tons of Uranium in Europe after the occupation in 1940, even given Groves bought some 1,000 tons out from under the German's noses from the Belgian Company Union Miniere, that leaves 2,370 tons of Uranium. Unaccounted for.

Nearly THREE TIMES what the U.S. had to work with.
Where I agree with you is in your summary of the evidence that the US and Britain (don't know how much the Soviets were in this particular loop, which is another topic) had, at minimum, good reason to believe that there was a credible threat of some kind of German nuclear weapons during the war itself.
You forget that the 'official' conclusion of the Casablanca Conference, to which the Soviets sent minor witnesses but had no official presence of the likes of Roosevelt or Churchill, was that the Soviets would be kept abreast of all Allied intentions and discoveries. You may also not know (what I suspect) is that, while they were busy knocking out most of his teeth as a Nazi Jew but still a Nazi, the Russians likely turned Houtermanns. And that meant that they had direct insight into one half of the (Reich's Post) effort. They certainly knew about the test detonation in Thuringia because (Farrell) has the document with Stalin's name on the circulation list. Did we know?
I think this is is a critical question. Because it's clear that, whatever happened then, _now_ we do know. And are busy with a branch, wiping up all evidence of bootprints on the backtrail.

The Raising Of (Wargrave) U-534
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G7IqdInqJMs

The Sponsor of the hunt is a media mogul. YKW that means. And the hunter is someone who has been looking for the final three, unaccounted for, U-Boats for the last 30+ years. Tell me he isn't being paid for his services too.

Time Index: 4:11. The boat is laid up in Kiel for three weeks waiting for 'someone or something'. A crewman makes a drawing of the crate that that 'thing' is. The crate has sparklies coming off of it. Uh ohh.

Time Index 17:20. Stealing fuel for a Type IX long range boat when combat patrols by Type XXI/XXIII/XXVI would be far more effective for the little area German still had. Radio messages come in: "Surrender. Norway still a combat zone, Denmark under ceasefire, go to the nearest base." RAF units _specifically_ targeted on the Kattegut and North Sea as 'waters still accessible to German U-Boats'.

Time Index: 28:40. Three E-Boats running flak escort, trap the radar equipped Sunderland in a threeway fire cone, it presses on anyway. Liberator/Privateer Bombardier: "We came in high, they were a dead duck, I dropped and missed and the flying officer called down to tell me to do better or he'd send the navigator. We came in low and I nailed them. Because they were still running on the surface..." Why? Why in daylight? Why on the surface when you have a Schnorkel?

Nobody knows where they are going. Which is of course impossible since the exec has to back the Skipper and the Navigator has to back them both while the radioman has to deliver messages, sent in stream with garble and those intended for other boats, even if they are in code, based on code groups contained in sealed sailing orders.

The skipper of 534, Nollau fights the ship on the surface, loses it to depth charge attack, pressing a mission after it's certain Germany will capitulate, when he doesn't have to AND with a boat carrying T-11 torpedoes. This 'grave failure' on his part so haunts his days and nights that he commits 'suicide' /decades later/.

Why?

Here's my take: They are carrying radioisotopes or isomers, probably as precursor compounds to be fully chemically separate and inserted in bomb cores at JNFC Nitchitsu as part of F-NZ. If the former, they will be spun out in ultracentrifuges already delivered to Konan via flying boat. If the latter, they will be spun-activated in a 'Bell' Tokomak plasma discharge capacitor whereupon they will be at a high metastable state for 10-20 hours.

The Captain isn't going to surrender because he has been explicitly told that Germany's sole hope for survival as a people and a culture lies in Japan having the ability to hostage the U.S. into polite treatment of their former Axis ally. He is leaving his family behind so he has clear motive to want a 'Five Minutes Past Midnight' Germany to be ransomed out of a plowed-under civilization status.

The Sunderland is a prize taker. The Liberators or Privateers are muscle. The E-Boats are there to make the surface run possible but /also/ to make sure there is no mid-ocean surrender 'as has happened before' (don't think that U-505 was an 'accident' by an out of control HK group commander, it was a practice run).

They want what is on that U-Boat, if only as proof of what is going to Japan. ONLY when the 'shots across the bow' don't work and the U-Boat fights back, do they sink her.

The T-11 torpedoes and by implication, the high speed surface run itself are functions of German awareness of mines and/or Royal Navy Submarines lurking in ambush as they fight to break out into the North Sea and Atlantic. Such an ambush has already sent U-864 to the bottom, outside Bergen along with the large number of other lost/overdue cargo boats will have told OKK that the Allies are onto them.

And while we're here... Why is the middle of U-864 missing? Why do they wan't to crush 2,000 bottles of Mercury under sand and concrete as a collapsed pressure hull? The truth is that something like the Glomar Explorer or even another submarine with hardshell divers has likely already sterlized the site of it's critical center section.

The ruse is that the Mercury is the problem. But depending on what the 'flasks' are made from, this likely isn't Mercury. It's Xerum 525. Aka Red Mercury-

>
Some of the mercury shipped to Japan by U-boat in 1945 had been subjected to a special plasma physics process, as a result of which it was slightly radioactive but also had another extremely dangerous property requiring it to be entombed. One suspects that the mercury in this case may have been such a mercury amalgamate.

It is interesting to note that U-864 was carrying a shipment of Me 262 jet engines, while U-234 had only a whole Me 262 in its component parts. This latter aircraft has never been admitted by the USN in its Unloading Manifest or in any other official document, although most German crew members had watched it being loaded. This suggests that, as suspected, the latter aircraft was the two-seater special bomber last heard of at Rechlin in January 1945, a design for which there was no time for reproduction in Japan, and the use to which it was to be put remains classified to this day.
>

http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic.php?t=119393

Mercury which has been subjected to high heating in a reactor vessel (or Tokomak) turns a ruddy pink or purple color and Mercury /paste/ is used as a carrier for the highly unstable, toxic and explosive...Plutonium.

They talk about the carrier but the horror would be the discovery that the U-864 was in fact carrying a substantial portion of that missing Uranium.

As Plutonium.

Uranium which the folks at Diebner's HWA Gottow group were so desperate to begin converting to plutonium that they forced a reactor RCR casualty whose remains are still hot to this very day, less than 60 miles from Berlin. Including baked to peanutbrittle parafin (graphite/carbon moderator carrier) and plutonium in small bricketts where it was flung from the test bay through a shattered roof.
If it is plutonium, U233 or U235, the flasks will be gold lined, just like they were on U-234 (the submarine, not the element variant).

And that will indeed be something because it will mean that Groves was 'And now it can be told' _lying through his teeth_ about EVERYTHING and not just the Uranium separation effort.
Although some of what you say is inferential, by Occam's Razor it is still compelling. Here I am referring specifically to what you say about the Atlantic Allies, by virtue of their antisubmarine effort aimed at wiping out the Germany to Japan nuclear logistics traffic (and maybe some other, related missions?) all but telegraphing the Germans that their most secret communications had been compromised.
The Russians will know. Because they got several dozen if not a hundred or more of the topflight experimental technicians which Bormann's order (5,000 techs, saved from the Eastern Front) remanded back to the Reich Reseatch Council.

We know for a fact that the Russians sank several U-Boats way the heck up beyond the Arctic Circle, out east of the Barents Sea in the Kara or Laptev, where they couldn't possibly be hunting PQ convoys and were frankly a little far out even for the normally stated excuse of harassing the Soviet fishing fleets. Again, the spread of dates is interesting. Type VIIs from 1942 when there was no practical way to get round Cape Hope before the Type IXs. Others as late as August 1944. When it hardly mattered what was being done to the arctic convoys because we were in Paris.

My view: This was part of the earliest efforts to support long range transport of goods, either directly or by serving as a refueling point for flying boats making the trip to Korea. I forget which source it was, it might have been _Blunder_ or the Grey Falcon site. But one of the acknowledged 'well researched' books made an astounding assertion that there had been Japanese scientists working in Austria from very early on in the war, right up to the end at the Gusen subcamp. If these are among the dead who were killed and cremated by the SS (thinking, undoubtedly, that the Americans were too stupid to make atomic weapons and this would be the means by which 'the next war' was won), their remains buried in the Hannover mine, it would explain a lot as to why their relatives never searched for them. And indeed, imply that they chose death rather than capture and compromise of the Japanese program.

This would certainly account for the poor showing (thermal diffusion, abandoned by the Germans as the Klusius-Dickel system by late 1941) of the Nishina team. But allow for a _military_ exchange system under the F-Go (Kyoto) IJN group under Dr. Arakatsu and Admiral Hideo which could literally outcircle the extreme political sensitivity Japan felt in provoking Russia while they had their hands full fighting the Americans (and Chinese).

Here is it important to note that the SS ran almost every flight East to the Urals and beyond within a Longrange Recce group of specially painted Ju-290s in civilian markings, based in the Reich's Protectorate and staging from forward fields in the U-word-I-can't-say. And those pilots, when interviewed, insisted he was 'completely unaware' of any Manchurian Delivery System and would have known because the number of capable airframes and long-range navigation trained aircrews was only a handful.

https://sites.google.com/site/naziabomb ... mb-project

Yet rumors persist that, when the Marines overran facilities up near Chosin, north of Konan-

http://b-29s-over-korea.com/US-Marines- ... %20map.gif

They discovered _German marked_ ultracentrifuges. While the Germans themselves have 'no records' of where the five now-known Cyclotrons which were operational in the Reich (One in Lichterfeld, two in Austria and one each in the KWIP and KWIH) came from. And the Americans didn't ask the Japanese where they got the five which they subsequently cut up and dumped off Yokohama.

Centrifuges are basically large standing pipes and not that hard to stuff in whatever space you want (though maintaining the mass balance of the carefully aligned rotors in the ultrahigh rpm motors would be a concern). But the permanent magnets for cyclotrons are huge. You couldn't ship one inside even a Cargo U-Boat, I don't think.

But you might stuff one in a Wiking...

Of course, pushing the envelope of not-Nazi here, there is also the suddenness of the Russian _airborne_ raid on Konan itself and the names of the Scientists on the F-NZ project which the escaping POW brought out with him-

>
Konan was captured quite suddenly and unexpectedly by Soviet paratroop assault 24 August 1945. In October 1946 a chemical engineer Otogoro Natsume stole a fishing boat and escaped to reach American lines in South Korea where he was interrogated. Otogoro Natsume corroborated Snell's account of a nuclear test blast and asserted that scientists working for F-NZ who were captured by the Soviets, included Oishi Takeo, Wakabayashi Tadashiro, Takahashi Rikizo, Sato Sei, Fukuda Koken and Tsuchida Meiro, none were physicists and all were under the command of Admiral Hasegawa Hideo
>

https://sites.google.com/site/naziabomb ... mb-project

How did they know where to go?

If ANY of those men, from either side of the German or Japanese nuclear teams (and we never heard of Japanese being released) had apriori knowledge of each other or their respective projects as part of a multinational effort to make Axis atomic weapons, the Russians would have discovered it, if only through cross check vetting of the Japanese and German interrogation results. Ask the same physics question, expect the same answer or the beatings will continue until truthiness improves.
Von Ardenne was treated like royalty by Stalin, who was surely one of the worst, most evil, murderous and paranoid dictators of all time, if not THE worst. And yet he gave Von Ardenne the Stalin Prize. What, exactly, did Von Ardenne produce for the USSR, and did he do the same thing, or something very similar, for Nazi Germany just a couple of years before? What was going on here, who knew about it, and how, and---perhaps most important of all---WHY is so much information about all of this still classified more than 70 years later? These are among the questions I am trying to answer.
Stalin's politics evolved as a blue collar thug in a world of jaded philosopher elitists trying to jump start a Communist state from a feudal slave economy barely out of serfdom. He knew the people far better than Lenin or Trotsky did. He forged them into a hammer sufficient to beat a blank into a modern state and ultimately, he had help from the likes of 'the people' whom Solzhenitsyn talks about.

As such, I always take history's judgment of his character with a considered bit of scepticism for the capacity of the Russian proletariat masses to achieve beyond their ability without a whip across their shoulders and a muzzle against their necks was as limited as it had been in the days of the Czars.

Comparatively, Roosevelt was barely functional for the last two years of his life. Churchill was a bipolar drunkard buffoon. Hitler was deemed a sexual deviant and syphylitic madman (even after Irving found the medical report signifying a terminal heart condition which Morrell sourced to two of the top cardio specialists in Germany, both of whom advised 'The Patient' to take it easy and plan his next six months to a year very carefully). With these as examples of counter cultural character assassination and manipulation as a given and with virtually all of the living first-person associates and witnesses now dead, I have a feeling that we will never know these men as they truly were.

What we can determine, if we act before the evidence is completely eradicated, is WHO and HOW BADLY we have been manipulated by as a function of the forces really running this world and truths of the geo-political altering of our global social evolution that resulted from the invention of the atomic bomb and it's assertive attribution to the wrong parties.

John Kennedy said once: "The easiest way to get something done is to give credit for it to someone else." But in this case, the evil is so huge and the precipice on the abyss we now stand so conflated with false truths, that we need to take a step back and look at the reality of what happens when you push globalism and universality by arbitrary, absolutist, means as a method of polarizing, demonizing and assigning false motives to one group as opposed to competing ones for all.

Again, because the first level proofs are becoming more rare-

http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/world-news ... ry-4886214

We are left with basically what are held in the archives of nation states-

>
The Soviets were stationed in St Georgen until 1955 and they took all of the files on the site back with them to Moscow.

Experts are trying to discover if there is a link between St Georgen and sites in Germany proper where scientists were assembled during the Third Reich in a bid to match American efforts to build the ultimate weapon.
>

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article ... mplex.html

Now that they themselves being pushed to extinction as unwanted competitors to the World State. It is my hope that Russia, in payback for our interference in 'that place I can't name, east of Poland and North of the Black Sea', will act to blow the lid right off the lies and let the truth be aired before the underlying infection destroys us all.

The Germans were first. The Allies were first to use on helpless civilians.

The Germans thought they were going to be annihilated because that is what men like Stimson and Morgenthau were asking for.

Even with the I-400s and Seirans-

http://www.operationstormbook.com/diagr ... am%20B.jpg

The Allies had no such reason to fear Japan.

From sheer greed as the desire to continue the war profiteering as long as possible while SMASHING Europe as an industrial power, The Allies wasted two years fumbling about in the Mediterranean when the REAL German program, which was hidden from Ultra by proper multi-compartment, courier delivered, signature circulation document security, was progressing towards a better bomb than ours.

We may have missed disaster, by inches, simply because someone from inside the German team sold out for Thirty Pieces and a plane ticket.

The destruction of Europe allowed America to replace Colonial Imperialism with the Capitalist/Keynesian equivalent which no less than FOUR TIMES took us to the brink of Nuclear War with virtually no warning and has, via the IMF, left entire regions devastated and essentially eternally in debt for want of loans whose benefits their populations never received benefit from and cannot pay back now. As we march towards a destiny of even self-eradication for the chance to enable 2% of this world's population, spread through every country, to become even richer and more contemptuous of traditions of culture.

I shake my head in sheer wonder that people do not understand how deeply rooted the evil is within our societies' perception of itself as the White Knights of The World Protectors.

As such, I will tell you one part of a single answer to the questions you pose:

Isotons are variations of material elements with the same proton count but at vastly greater charge energy state inherent to higher mass as a different atomic number resulting from gamma photon deflection (suspension really) of magnetic spin compression within a rapidly flipping electric field. The fluoresced gamma photons knocking loose neutrons which increase the 'loading' possible on the shell orbits.

The result of these two nested processes is like compression of a spring within a tightly enclosed volume, opening up additional electron and neutron orbits to achieve a metastable balance at enormous increase in quantum energy states.

In 1940s Germany, I suggest that this was done by men like Professor Gerlach thru studious design of molecular chemistry isoster maps of radiofuel molecules and heavy metals which, when overlaid as templates enabled the creation (transmutation) of the very first metaphasic material constructs. Materials which are not one of the four primary states of matter but 'somewhere inbetween' in a PDC so that their atomic shell geometries could overlay and provide the interpositional donor particles needed to achieve this transmutation in the very high density charge environment provided by Ardenne Sources. This was done in what was then called a spherical synchotron or 'Bell' (toroidal field generator powered by plasma discharge capacitors) but is now known as a Tokomak.

Suspensions of radio material in mercury as a volatile, high density, room temperature, metallic liquid provides the both the electrical conduit for the photochemistry fluorescent emission of the gamma photons for displacement shift (under semi-bosonic, fluid-shell, conditions) and the 'raw material' particles to achieve that enhanced metastable energy state.

>
Principle scientist in charge of the Projekt Thor, was Prof Walther Gerlach. In 1922 he became famous as an understudy to Otto Stern, for their discovery of the deflection of atoms in a magnetic field, known as the Stern–Gerlach effect. This was also the basis of Quantum Physics.

With photo-chemistry, the concept creates a dense plasma contained by powerful electric magnets to cause fluorescence in Mercury. Excited Mercury ions would then cause Beryllium to emit slow neutrons to be captured by Thorium 232, changing it into Uranium 233.
...
Prof Walther Gerlach who headed Thor for Heereswaffenamt was a dedicated scientist. In 1943 Gerlach received the Nobel prize for his work on spin polarisation of atoms. This itself was peculiar because his published work on the subject was in the 1920s and early 1930s. What prompted the awarding of recognition in 1943?
As an administrator, in emergency measures to progress the German A-bomb project, Gerlach was also charged with procuring fissile Uranium from January 1944. He was appointed in charge of the entire Uranium project by Heereswaffenamt, replacing Dr Abraham Essau.
Documents captured by ALSOS at Strassburg, often referred to as the Goudsmitt Papers which were classified after the War today reveal drawings of a tall standing device, looking like a Van der Graff generator, or perhaps a Tesla Coil. At the very top inside it's spherical head was a spinning device. In the margin are notes describing 5 million volts!
Nazi research papers captured at Strassburg concerning wartime nuclear projects were classified and archived in USA. One report has a diagram of a tall cylindrical device said in the plan to generate 5 Million Electron Volts (5MeV). This device resembled a giant Van der Graff generator and had no obvious purpose for a conventional nuclear reactor.[2]
>

https://sites.google.com/site/nazibelluncovered/

The Bell PDC
http://www.deutsches-museum.de/archiv/a ... kument-12/

The result is atomic weapons powered by ounces of radio fuel or perhaps even just very high compression front conventional explosives (Schumann/Trinks) which can wipe out blocks of buildings at a time with very high gamma densities when the 'spring' of the material energy states decompresses.

See: Thuringia Walde as the highest background gamma location in all of Europe.

That knowledge, backed by the experimental lab physics to make the general concept into a working process of engineered production capacity, would give the entire planet small scale atomic weapons within a year.

The difference is that we can do now, with nano engineered manipulation of individual atomic orbit shells, what once took a dam or entire powerplant worth of brute electrical generation to accomplish by raw force in a synchotron.

While, in 1945, the Germans had 3rd Generation atomic /triggers/ for what neither Von Ardenne, with his late war lithium deuteride experiments, nor Kurt Diebner with his rushed effort to make Plutonium at Gattow or SIII Jonastal, could provide the weapon fuel for.

Today that is also not an issue because we know that, with enough neutrons, even U238 can be made to fission while acting as only a low level alpha emitter in it's natural state. And Lithium Deuteride is as readily synthesizable from several processes to provide that booster.

For those that seek Globalism as NWO/OWG with the rabid fervor of the 'by any possible means, a desired goal achieved!' grasping fanatic; the notion that suddenly the smallest of states could simply say _No_, to leveraged trade debt or externally imposed rules of global economic conduct, with authority of nuclear weapons, is an unredeemable, unacceptable, outcome.
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Re: First atomic bomb was German !?!

#658

Post by williamjpellas » 05 Feb 2015, 19:43

Wow, tons and tons and tons of information and commentary in your post! Unfortunately I will have to respond in bits and pieces because I am pressed for time (as usual). But I would love to pick your brain about some of these things and BTW thank you for posting some of your sources.

The result is atomic weapons powered by ounces of radio fuel or perhaps even just very high compression front conventional explosives (Schumann/Trinks) which can wipe out blocks of buildings at a time with very high gamma densities when the 'spring' of the material energy states decompresses.

I have spoken via internet correspondence with three people who claim to be nuclear weapons designers and their respective takes on the Schumann - Trinks design are all over the map. The first and most outspoken of them says he works (or worked) for the US Navy and he says definitively that it wouldn't have gone off and that he thought it was a "hoax" and that the "bazooka" or RPG effect that the S-T bomb tried to leverage as a detonation mechanism wasn't valid. The second guy, after I posted a photo of the schematic, said, "That's interesting, though I still have my reservations about the disposition of the explosives around the core", and the third said, Yes, the design would work, though not in the way that the first generation US bombs would work. He stated that the bomb would have been very dirty but otherwise would have gone off and that its power, though generated in a sub-critical way, would still have amounted to a nuclear explosion. Of these three, my educated-layman-and-not-a-trained-physicist's guess is that the third guy is right; your characterization of it as a weapon that would "wipe out blocks of buildings at a time with very high gamma densities" is consistent with what the third guy stated, and with the "hybrid" approach that Diebner took in designing his weapon. Again, it appears that what we are looking at in Thuringia---though perhaps not at Bug Isthmus, which if I remember correctly is the site at which Italian journalist Luigi Romersma claimed to have witnessed one of the other two German atomic bomb tests---is a tactical nuclear device of comparitively modest though still real explosive power, coupled with tons of hard radiation. A super "dirty bomb", if you like, or a low grade nuclear bomb with as much, or more, killing power from gamma rays as it got from the blast.

See: Thuringia Walde as the highest background gamma location in all of Europe.

That knowledge, backed by the experimental lab physics to make the general concept into a working process of engineered production capacity, would give the entire planet small scale atomic weapons within a year.

The difference is that we can do now, with nano engineered manipulation of individual atomic orbit shells, what once took a dam or entire powerplant worth of brute electrical generation to accomplish by raw force in a synchotron.


If I understand you correctly here, you are claiming that individual atoms can now be specifically configured into atomic weapons or at least, that individual atoms of this or that element can be manipulated or transmuted into weapons grade material. Obviously this was done on a much more scattershot basis via cyclotron particle bombardment and breeder reactors in the past (and is still being done), but I think what you are talking about is customizing individual atoms? That is a staggering claim if true. Do you have a source or sources I could read about this? Thanks!

While, in 1945, the Germans had 3rd Generation atomic /triggers/ for what neither Von Ardenne, with his late war lithium deuteride experiments, nor Kurt Diebner with his rushed effort to make Plutonium at Gattow or SIII Jonastal, could provide the weapon fuel for.

Now we're getting somewhere. If Von Ardenne was experimenting with lithium deuteride, it means he was pursuing either 1) boosted fission, 2) a true fission-fusion-fission H-bomb, or 3) both. Joseph Farrell, as I am guessing you already know, believes that the Germans were after H-bombs right from the get-go, having already moved, at least conceptually, well past first generation fission bombs and on into H-bomb R&D. This is a position that has some merit; Dr. Strangelove himself, Edward Teller, wanted to do the same thing in the Manhattan Project, but he was more or less shunted off to the side to brood over his "super" while the rest of the Project focused on the simpler but still effective first generation a-bombs. Diebner's bomb, however, in my view almost certainly was powered by U-233 and NOT P-239. U-233, in turn (as you mention elsewhere in your post), was specifically discussed by Werner Heisenberg---who supposedly didn't know much about how to build an atomic bomb---at the 1942 Harnack Haus Conference. According to Rainer Karlsch in his much vilified book Hitler's Bomb, this conference was penetrated by Soviet spies but was apparently completely unknown to the other Allies. Karlsch backs some of his more eyebrow-raising claims with KGB documents that he dug out of Russian archives in the brief period of relative open-ness that followed the collapse of the USSR. I doubt highly that Putin's Russia will be as forthcoming about such, ahem, radioactive historical secrets.

Today that is also not an issue because we know that, with enough neutrons, even U238 can be made to fission while acting as only a low level alpha emitter in it's natural state. And Lithium Deuteride is as readily synthesizable from several processes to provide that booster.

Welllll....yes, though a U-238 bomb wouldn't be very powerful, even with boosting. But your point is well taken.

For those that seek Globalism as NWO/OWG with the rabid fervor of the 'by any possible means, a desired goal achieved!' grasping fanatic; the notion that suddenly the smallest of states could simply say _No_, to leveraged trade debt or externally imposed rules of global economic conduct, with authority of nuclear weapons, is an unredeemable, unacceptable, outcome.

Again, not a topic we can go into in great detail in this thread on this forum, BUT I will say that I think you are trending in the right direction with this. To be sure, WWII had, and continues to have, enormous consequences for the whole world.
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Re: First atomic bomb was German !?!

#659

Post by williamjpellas » 05 Feb 2015, 21:15

Again, because the first level proofs are becoming more rare-

http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/world-news ... ry-4886214

We are left with basically what are held in the archives of nation states-

The Soviets were stationed in St Georgen until 1955 and they took all of the files on the site back with them to Moscow.

Experts are trying to discover if there is a link between St Georgen and sites in Germany proper where scientists were assembled during the Third Reich in a bid to match American efforts to build the ultimate weapon.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article ... mplex.html


I'd like to know just who the "experts" and "authorities" mentioned in that article are and just how vigorously they are "pursuing" the leads that have literally been unearthed by Rainer Karlsh, Heiko Petermann, and Andreas Sulzer. There is some question about the origin of at least some of the 126,000 barrels of nuclear waste that are mentioned in a couple of articles on the internet, as others in this thread have noted. It turns out that while some of the waste might in fact have originally been part of this or that WWII German nuclear weapons effort, a great deal of it has been dumped into the mine in the decades since the war. Making due allowances for the typically weird tone of the following Der Spiegel article---as well as its complete and total silence about the connection to Hitler and the War---here is some additional information about the salt mine, which is located near Remlingen.

http://www.spiegel.de/international/ger ... 84523.html

Of course, it's possible that the postwar Germans simply carried on the practice of the wartime Germans, and---to be clear---it is certainly alleged in some quarters that at least some of what is in the mine did come from one aspect or another of the WWII German nuclear effort. By "some of what is in the mine" I mean both nuclear waste in some form and also the remains of workers killed by the SS just prior to Germany's collapse.

Now that they themselves being pushed to extinction as unwanted competitors to the World State. It is my hope that Russia, in payback for our interference in 'that place I can't name, east of Poland and North of the Black Sea', will act to blow the lid right off the lies and let the truth be aired before the underlying infection destroys us all.

The Germans were first. The Allies were first to use on helpless civilians.

The Germans thought they were going to be annihilated because that is what men like Stimson and Morgenthau were asking for.


I reject the characterization of "helpless civilians" simply because WWII was what it was: total war. It wasn't simply one nation's small cadre of professional knights and pikemen under their Count or Duke facing off against that of another. George Feifer, in his book Tennozan: The Battle of Okinawa and the Atomic Bomb, states that for every man the US put in the field, it took 19 to put him there. I don't know how he arrived at this figure, but I can well believe it. In other words it took the work and labor of 19 others to produce the clothing, the food, the weapons, and all the equipment used by that soldier, and well as to train and transport him to the battlefield. This was the cost of modern war,and obviously some of those "19" were going to be "civilians", quote - unquote. Well, weren't they contributing directly to the war effort, and couldn't it be argued that the "civilians" on the assembly lines in Detroit or Tokyo or Berlin or London were legitimate military targets? Mind you, I am not saying that mass destruction weapons that can indiscriminately slaughter entire urban populations in one stroke are a good or desireable thing in their own right, existentially speaking. I am not because they are not. I am simply saying that the moral calculus used by all the combatant nations, but particularly by the Allies, was a much more difficult and nuanced thing than either contemporary Marxist political correctness or contemporary conspiracy theories would have it.

Having said that, I will throw you a bone where Morgenthau is concerned. While Nazi propagandists made great hay of the Plan, and while this almost certainly stiffened the resolve of some Germans to fight to the end---with resultant casualties and destruction---surely the Nazis themselves had no right to expect that their own "new order" would go unpunished or unavenged should they lose the War, and surely it would not be unreasonable for the rest of the world, or at least, those opposing and/or victimized by the Nazis, to want a permanent end to ruinous German / Nazi militarism, yes? On the other hand it would also be completely unreasonable to expect that any nation or people would go willingly into the kind of draconian "settlement" advocated by Morgenthau, since it amounted to a permanent destruction of German industry and, really, even of their ability to legitimately defend themselves and arguably of their character as a people. Which leads one to wonder why this Plan was formulated in the first place and what its goals ultimately were, and who stood to benefit; in the event, the US Joint Chiefs of Staff did implement some aspects of Morgenthau's vision, but on the whole that implementation was much less severe, much less comprehensive, and much shorter in duration than what Morgenthau wanted.

The entire subject of the Plan was controversial at the time and if anything is probably even more so today. Here is a google search of various articles and perspectives on the Plan. Draw your own conclusions.

https://www.google.com/webhp?sourceid=c ... hau%20plan

I suspect that you and I would part company after going some distance down this particular path, but I also think you have a point. And that's all I'm going to say here.


Even with the I-400s and Seirans-

http://www.operationstormbook.com/diagr ... am%20B.jpg

The Allies had no such reason to fear Japan.


Definitely don't agree with you here. The narrative of poor, peaceful Japan starting the war as some kind of anti-colonial "just revenge" for Western imperialism is straight out of WWII Japanese propaganda. Remember "Asia for the Asians" and "The Greater East-Asia Co-Prosperity Sphere" (good grief)? Both David Bergamini's Japan's Imperial Conspiracy and---though he tried to publicly disavow Bergamini---Herbert P. Bix's ironically similar Hirohito and the Making of Modern Japan, among other sources, definitely do not allow for this "interpretation". No, Japanese militarism, racism, and Shinto warrior mysticism were more than enough to power their own lust, quite on its own terms, for international conquest and expansionism. Further, since you mention the I-400s, I assume you are aware that Unit 731 had already successfully carried out bio-bombing attacks on Chinese civilians and on Allied POWs, and that biological attacks were planned against the US West Coast for September, 1945? This is leaving aside Japan's own, much-more-advanced-than-is-typically-realized atomic bomb projects, which I believe were close to fruition with or without significant German aid (though it is all but certain that German technology and uranium did help them, the question is how much).

From sheer greed as the desire to continue the war profiteering as long as possible while SMASHING Europe as an industrial power, The Allies wasted two years fumbling about in the Mediterranean when the REAL German program, which was hidden from Ultra by proper multi-compartment, courier delivered, signature circulation document security, was progressing towards a better bomb than ours.

We may have missed disaster, by inches, simply because someone from inside the German team sold out for Thirty Pieces and a plane ticket.


Heh, love the prose here! My guess as to the identity of the German Judas in this case would be General Hans Kammler, the SS uberlord in charge of the entire German top secret, literally underground weapons empire from mid-1944 on. He supposedly committed suicide in 1945 but I have never believed this to be the case.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article ... ramme.html

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williamjpellas
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Re: First atomic bomb was German !?!

#660

Post by williamjpellas » 05 Feb 2015, 22:27

And then there are the discontiguities in timeline.

From the late 1800s more sources of Uranium were being desperately sought from Canada to Spain, the Balkans, Persia and Central Africa. All this for a material that was used, at most, in milligram quantities in glazes and dyes and well nigh on 50 years before Hahn and Strassman made their 'world changing discovery'?!

Indeed, the Congo was not the source of the richest deposits in the world, Joachimsthal, Czechoslovakia was and this was part of the reoccupation area that Hitler /insisted/, in 1937, be allowed ethnic self determination as a German province of the Reich, even though only about 40% of the population was Volksdeutsch under the loosest of grouping labels.



There was some incredible writing in the late 19th century that anticipated many of the most amazing technological developments of the 20th century. Jules Verne's fictional submarine Nautilus predicted the advent of nuclear powered propulsion, and there were many other fantastic stories involving space travel to other planets and even teleportation (the future "Philadelphia Experiment" if you believe that actually occurred). Regarding nuclear weapons, it is a fact that Mark Twain and Nikola Tesla were friends and corresponded for some time regarding some of Tesla's ideas; a quick websearch did not turn up anything definitive from their letters, and so I don't recall just now whether Tesla had in mind some sort of proto-concept of an atomic bomb or if he and Twain were talking about what would later be known as Tesla's "death ray" or directed energy weapon.

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