First atomic bomb was German !?!

[stellung]

I know when the Russians began their work. So, your position is that these German enemies were not necessary to the Russians? I am aware of Fuchs and the others.

The essential question is this: If the post-war reports of German atomic research are to be believed then what were these Germans doing in the Russian atomic project immediately after the war? Why were they awarded Prizes? What significant contribution could these men make?

Repeated like a mantra, the "germans were nowhere near" an atomic device. Yet, somehow, these men were rewarded for their work, instead of being shot for whatever little knowledge they possessed so that they would not be kidnapped by any nervous Americans or the British.

[phylo_roadking]

I know when the Russians began their work. So, your position is that these German enemies were not necessary to the Russians? I am aware of Fuchs and the others.

Oh look, how suprising - ANOTHER STRAWMAN

I said...

that they wouldn't have been necessary to kickstart the Russian Bomb programme - which had existed since 1943 under Kurchatov.

3/ The Americans at this point were as yet unaware of Klaus Fuchs and the Rosens - so they weren't aware of the Russians' progress "on their own"! They made the mistaken assumption that GERMAN scientists and technicians would be required by the Russians for them to get anywhere...from a standing start...whereas the Russians had been at work themselves for several years

Yet, somehow, these men were rewarded for their work, instead of being shot for whatever little knowledge they possessed so that they would not be kidnapped by any nervous Americans or the British.

I presume they were rewarded IN RUSSIA - oh look, the Stalin Prize! - for their work IN RUSSIA for the RUSSIANS.

A country where it was somewhat difficult for them to "be kidnapped by any nervous Americans or the British" Get your timeline right.

They were hardly being rewarded by the Russians for their work for the Nazis!!!

[stellung]

Apparently, you are obsessed with your standing start term. If it is accepted that the German did their standing sart during the war but little else, why would the Russians want them? You think Fuchs and the rest provided the Russians with what they needed, so again, what good were these men? A security risk? The Russians were known for getting rid of such people.

You seem to suggest the Germans knew very little in May of 1945. How did they become more capable by July of 1945?

[phylo_roadking]

Apparently, you are obsessed with your standing start term.

Only drawing the readers' attention to the fact that YOU micheviously chose to ignore it time after time...

You think Fuchs and the rest provided the Russians with what they needed

Again - a strawman. Kindly indicate where I said Fuchs et al provided them with everything they needed....

Even your OWN references shows that the Russians were weak on uranium enrichment in industrial quantities. They got the "blueprint" of the Bomb from Fuchs....just not anything to put IN it in the quantities required and over and over again to create a weapon system, not just a single bang...

Your original reference

"Unless the migration of important German scientists and technicians into the Soviet zone is immediately stopped, we believe that the Soviet Union within a relatively short time may equal the United States developments in the field of atomic research..." Issued by the Joint Intelligence Committee.

....YOU interpreted wrongly as applying JUST to The Bomb...

"Why were they worried? These men did not know the correct critical mass anyway."...

Again, their contribution to the first Russian atomic device cannot be overlooked.

Whereas it's QUITE clear from both the statement above AND the work done by German scientists in Russia that the Americans were concerned about the whole field, not JUST the atomic explosive device.

[stellung]

Perhaps you will make up your mind one day. However, the prospect does not look good at present.

The Americans dismissed the Germans. Groves wrote that he was surprised by how little they had done. The project had been virtually abandoned by all accounts in 1942, except for some minor work. Then the Germans were managing uranium production and separation a few months after the end of the war in Russia? You have no argument.

"Furman also consulted Alvarez, in May 1944, by which time he had moved to Los Alamos. Writing to him at 'P.O. Box 1539, Santa Fe, New Mexico,' Furman asked for advice on a project that followed up on Oppenheimer's September 1943 suggestion 'to obtain samples of water from Lake Constance and the upper reaches of the Rhine River which are accessible from Switzerland without flying in either special testing apparatus or personnel.' Alvarez was asked to draft a cable providing instructions to 'the people in Switzerland' who would be doing the work."

"The March 7, 1944, report, authored by Furman, was provided to Groves along with a letter from its author. Furman noted that 'it has been noted that the enemy has the necessary material and is accomplishing important work.' The report covered the activities of German scientists, uranium, moderators, enemy research centers, German industrial activity, and Italian activity."

From Spying on the Bomb by Jeffrey T. Richelson. He is also author of the U.S. Intelligence Community.

[phylo_roadking]

Perhaps you will make up your mind one day. However, the prospect does not look good at present.

My mind is quite made up, thank you very much. What I don't need is someone
1/ telling ME what's in it; how do THEY know? Unless I tell them...
2/ and they THEN choose to intentionally and maliciously misquote me, creating strawmen.

You've tried that three times tonight and failed.

But I can understand why you're having so much trouble with all these topics; your grasp of entire learned works on the matter must be tenuous if you can't even read a few lines of text HERE without inventing content for yourself.

The project had been virtually abandoned by all accounts in 1942, except for some minor work. Then the Germans were managing uranium production and separation a few months after the end of the war in Russia? You have no argument.

No. Again - if you read back - I said the Germans WERE producing small amounts of enrichened Uranium during the war in laboratory conditions - just like the way Chi.U. and others in the U.S. were able to produce it in small amounts for experimentation into the extraction of it.

The Germans' problem - thanks to Heisenberg's mistake - was that they couldn't produce the tens of tons HE thought would be needed, that way. But they continued very-small-scale enrichment for experimentation purposes.

ONCE it became clear to the world...in the skies of Japan - just how "little" was required to achieve criticality....THEN their work became relevant again. It ALSO became relevant to provide the Soviets with experimental-levels of fissionables as their work progressed.

"The March 7, 1944, report, authored by Furman, was provided to Groves along with a letter from its author. Furman noted that 'it has been noted that the enemy has the necessary material and is accomplishing important work.' The report covered the activities of German scientists, uranium, moderators, enemy research centers, German industrial activity, and Italian activity."

So? Did it say in black and white in the Report they were well on the path to building a Bomb? Somehow I didn't think so. "Important work" could mean absolutely ANYTHING unless it's quantified.

As above - AGAIN - noone is disputing that the Germans were producing "the necessary material" I.E. enrichened uranium - just NOT in anything like the quantities THEY (the Germans) thought was necessary...

[Mark V]

If it is accepted that the German did their standing sart during the war but little else, why would the Russians want them? You think Fuchs and the rest provided the Russians with what they needed, so again, what good were these men? A security risk?

Hi,

Much less is known about the espionage aspect of fissionable materials production than the bomb design itself. Los Alamos leaked like sieve, but what and when Russians received about production methods is less than clear. It is possible that German scientists could somewhat contribute in this area.

On the other hand, basic process of producing Pu in reactors was pretty straighforward. Soviets knew pretty much all about properties of reactor manufactured Pu, and what limitations it had on weapon design. Reactors at that time were pretty simple affairs. Finer aspects of Pu production cycle are less than necessary if you have determination, raw materials, unlimited resources, tight schedule, and non-what-so-ever regard about human and enviromental dangers of producing/handling Pu. Separating Pu from irradiated fuel rods is still only basic chemistry and thousands of times easier than isotope enrichment of U.

It is pretty sure that Germans contributed to centrifuge U enrichment methods perfected in USSR. But that was after Soviets already had built the Pu bomb.

--

Soviets had established method of keeping several design teams working on same problem, and keeping teams totally isolated for security, redundancy, and/or political reasons.

Keeping German team working under them, just as an reference purpose, was altogether within working practices at that time. They may have contribited a lot, or nothing, but that would not had made difference about keeping the team working...

Soviets never put all eggs in same basket. Simple reason: In many areas of bleeding edge science Communist USSR was forced to use people they did not trust. Their new generation of young "raised from realiable peasant/worker class background" -scientists were no good, Soviet leadership knew that, and worked around the problem by using old-Russia, politically unreliable, or foreign knowledge - by keeping scientists in tight control. Russians are practical people. What is needed is done, if needed, outside of public eye and fanfare.


Regards

[Mark V]

just NOT in anything like the quantities THEY (the Germans) thought was necessary...

.. or enough for anyone else for any practical purpose other than basic research.

Germans never got much beyond the level of developing (admittedly) advanced concepts of U separation.

What was needed was couple tens of thousands of skilled workers, maybe 3-4 times the money that V-2 missile program consumed altogether, and several years - to actually make something in quantities usefull outside the laboratory.

Manufacturing say couple grams of Oralloy compared to 10kg needed for just one (1) bomb with advanced implosion design, is pretty much as difficult as the difference of masses. Thousands or tens of thousands of times as expensive in separation facilities, equipment, manpower.. ** Thats the luring simplicity of Uranium separation, but also its downfall. The costs per unit just does not go down by several magnitudes, no matter how much your pour money into program. French gaseous-diffusion U enrichment plant has adjanced to it an 4-reactor nuclear power plant (3000 Megawatts !!), just to keep the plant going... OK - centrifuges does not consume quite as much electricity


Regards



** One reason why only South-Africa, Pakistan, and China did chose for their initial capability to buid U bomb (wartime USA ofcourse chose to build both simultaneously - Texas way ). S-A for reasons of domestic abundance of raw material, domestically developed separation method, ability to keep the program under the carpet with scalability, and seeking only modest capablity. Pakistan for reasons of information they had gathered about advanced commercial isotope separation facilities in Europe, and also the scalability, concealment advantages. China maybe because U route offered less chances of big SNAFU (very high population density in many areas) for country that has limited knowledge, but plenty of patience. All other countries chose Pu route for initial capability.

[stellung]

From Atomversuche in Deutschland by Guenter Nagel:

Headquarters
European Theater of Operations
ALSOS Mission
APO 887

2 May 1945


SUBJECT: Gerlach Summary of Nuclear Reports


1. A new edition of "Forschungsberichte" was planned containing articles on successful pile experiments. Five articles in all were contemplated, and Gerlach wrote an introductory summary. We found this introductory summary in rough pencilled form which gives the status of the project as of January 1945.


-----------------------------------------

An examination of history books shows no project as of January 1945. Included in this document are locations as follows:


L II -- Leipzig II
CTR -- Che. technische Reichsanstalt
G II -- Gottow II
G III -- Gottow III
B V -- Berlin Versuch



People are led to believe that a cave in Haigerloch contained the only real work.

[LopEaredGaloot]

Some questions:

1. What is the 'reagent' involved? One of the posters (I believe it was Ohrdruf) hinted that the characteristics could only support a single chemical. Zirconium was mentioned which is interesting to me because modern, multi-purpose, CBUs are purported to included zirconium incendiary rings on their fragmenting casings and, like phosphorous, once 'lit' the stuff doesn't like to stop burning... Are you suggesting that a nuclear effect can pump a conventional explosive like a thermobaric device?

2. With regard to the supposed design of the weapon... My understanding of FAEs is that one of the reasons they are both so very effective and so very unreliable is that they -do not use- 'liquid air'. The oxidizer is entirely atmospheric which allows the fuel (ethene or methane) concentration to be that much more dense. Of course conditions like atmospheric inversion, target cross winds and the like can all greatly effect the overall cloud shape and density of submunition dispensed fuel vapor which then makes it a lot harder to light the candle so to speak.

Thermobarics are different because they are designed to burn very hot and convert the aluminum to oxygen in the initial deflagration -before- the full explosive (blast) effect is achieved. Or at least that's the way I understand it.

If you listen to the youtube report, 'coal dust' (graphite/carbon = neutron tamper and thermal barrier) and 'liquid air' are described as being inserted before mission takeoff or the test sequence. But what if you are dealing, not with an oxidizer effect but something more like a nitrogen or oxygen based supercoolant? Uranium and Plutonium are both transported in a mercury paste compound which is 'really easy to separate' upon delivery and the first TN weapon was nothing but a giant refrigerator complex.

What if you are looking at something like this, which keeps the mercury at a solid phase, holding the explosive compound in suspension, and then, as ithe mercury is allowed to come to room temperature at the target area, this secondary 'reagent' drops out of solution or colloid state and, upon coming together, activates and destabilizes?

3. Otto Hahn was a famous nuclear chemist who helped discover fission. He also had a hand in defining _isomers_ which are the bollotechnic compounds that change shape when subjected to stress and dump a huge amount of energy as gamma radiation but very little in the way of MA nucleides. Gamma is of course highly dangerous as a short term radiotoxin but it also creates a GREAT DEAL of plain old fashioned heat. Which brings us back to a nuclear isomer driven thermobaric designed to ring every last drop of chemical energy out of a given explosive mix. And possibly initiate low level fusion in a plasticized deuterium compound.

3. In the Youtube interview, Clare Werner describes 'a tree in full leaf' which certainly could be said to be a Rayleigh Taylor stem from a burgeoning explosive fireball. She does not mention the lightning effects which are more common when you have 'unburnt' radionucleides still decaying down, causing massive static discharges. Either way, what I would like to know is how densely populated that part of Germany is.

Because you see -whatever- the instigating agency-

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Nukecloud.png

Even if it was just a 1 kiloton equivalent yield, the fireball would, within a minute or so, rise to around 10,000ft. Which, along with the bright light, should make it visible to ground observers in a circle perhaps 70-100nm across. i.e. Clare Werner should have been one among HUNDREDS if not THOUSANDS who saw this, even late at night.

And what does 'R-Waffe' (the 'vacuum bomb') mean anyway? If A-Waffe means atomic could R-Waffe mean plutonium (Eka Rhenium)? This is important because it suggests a weaponization process somewhat like this:

Two spheroid explosive charges with carefully designed voids inbetween.
Isomer Based Liquid 'Reagent' drops into voids and upon reaching a given quantity (by volume or by gamma intensity) both inner and outer explosive panels blow _doubling_ the shaped charge effect, just like Schumann suggested.
Compressed reagent does a ballotechnic state change between solid and plasma phases and dumps a HUGE amount of gamma down a tamper tube where heavy water or LD6 equivalent begins to fuse as an urchin of residual plutonium also lights off and you have a primary-boost-secondary, high efficiency, low volume, nuclear yield.

'Reacting one against the other' just as suggested in the video.

Finally, on the Von Ardenne and his 'device'. My understanding is that this is nothing more or less than a high coherency neutron emitter (i.e. a Van de Graf generator). And look here-

1942
Finish of the development of the 1 MeV van de Graaff neutron generator

1943
Construction of the Cyclotron with 60 t magnet

1945
Last phase of the development of a Lithium separator with toric magnetic field and plasma ion source

http://www.vonardenne.biz/content/eng/m ... graphy.htm

What do you see? I see a betatron (has a magnetic collection tank, just like the Calutron) and possibly the source of the German Bell as a means to 'photo chemically' isolate and perhaps isomerically band enhance, either Uranium or Thorium by spin-cohering the material in a hybrid centrifuge environment and then 'shocking it' with blasts of neutrons from an Ardenne device firing up the middle. Until whatever is in the central test sample core starts to give Mossbauer discharges (gamma making gamma @ +1) as a vehicle to taking the material up to a metastable state. Once you have a very highly energized material, you can separate it into it's constituent isotopes as either an E94 or U233 derived substance (and the Germans grabbed all the Thorium they could get at the end of WWII).

Indeed, given that reliable separation of Lithium is the first step to LD6 -which also has a waxy, plastic like, appearance- this could also be the leap off for a tailored fifufi weapon which would indeed be two generations ahead of the state of the art in 1945 and would give the Soviets, by 1957, working TN weapons. And won Von Ardenne the only Stalin Prize ever given to a foreigner _for very small fusion devices_.

Ever seen 'Telefon'? What if the secret to the Cold War was that it was never about the power but the proximity of nukes to vulnerable targets? You aren't looking at a man with suitcase and a pistol going into a trance after receiving a telephone call but a man with a pineapple sized suitcase nuke deliberately heading for the nearest electrical plant or airbase. The Soviets can't get at the U.S. remote nuclear reserves but they can certainly get at the civilian infrastructure and try for a decap or spoiling/hostage attack. This is what all those 'missing micronukes' back in the early 90s were about.

NOW, think about what this means today, for a world looking at terrorism as stateless politics in which the technology to do the basic engineering has been reduced to PC levels of machine shop engineering. And you have the beginnings of an explanation for why whatever transphasic material came out of Ohdruf and the German nuclear program, is still highly classified and likely to remain so.

Oh, and 'vacuum bomb'? This is a reference to Quantum Potentialism, not atmospheric concussion/blast devices. When you cascade a high band isomer, you are encouraging whatever zero point field quantums are in effect to 'delossify' if not actively duct a massive amount of energy continuously out of the vacuum to magnify and prolong the existing effects.

Which also helps explain what the lightning is about. Becaue, ordinarily, 100 grams of plutonium and another 10kg or so of uranium wouldn't have enough residual mass to cause those continuing nuclear reaction effects. But a torsion field duct might.

[stellung]

The Americans have a document at NARA. ""Investigations, Research, Developments and Practical Use of the German Atomic Bomb." It is dated 24 January 1946. It concerns an atomic test viewed from the air by a flak expert named Zinsser. This test occurred in October 1944, which is around the time of two other tests, one of which was viewed by an emissary sent by Mussolini, Luigi Romersa. His account appeared in the journal Defensa in 1984.

"I flew from Ludwigslust (South of Luebeck), about 12 to 15 km from an atomic test station, when I noticed a strong, bright illumination of the whole atmosphere, lasting about 2 seconds.

"The clearly visible pressure wave escaped the approaching and following cloud formed by the explosion. This wave had a diameter of about 1 km when it became visible and the color of the cloud changed frequently. It became dotted after a short period of darkness with all sorts of light spots, which were, in contrast to normal explosions, of a pale blue color.

"After about 10 seconds the sharp outlines of the explosion cloud disappeared, then the cloud began to take on a lighter color against the sky covered with a gray overcast. The diameter of the still visible pressure wave was at least 9000 meters while remaining visible for 15 seconds.

"Personal observations of the colors of the explosion cloud found an almost blue-violet shade. During this manifestation reddish colored rims were to be seen, changing to a dirty-like shade in very rapid succession."


The observation was made from an He-111.

[Penn44]

It concerns an atomic test viewed from the air by a flak expert named Zinsser.

How did he know it was an atomic test?

Penn44

.

[JTG]

Because he was so told.. <rolls eyes>

Quantum Potentialism BWah ha ha

[LWD]

I'm not exactly sure what you were trying to say but a number of things didn't sound quite right.

Some questions:

1. What is the 'reagent' involved? One of the posters (I believe it was Ohrdruf) hinted that the characteristics could only support a single chemical. Zirconium was mentioned which is interesting to me because modern, multi-purpose, CBUs are purported to included zirconium incendiary rings on their fragmenting casings and, like phosphorous, once 'lit' the stuff doesn't like to stop burning... Are you suggesting that a nuclear effect can pump a conventional explosive like a thermobaric device?

From what I've read this seems unlikely if I understand what you are saying. It's also not clear to me why this would even be tried. Certainly produciton of Zirconium during this period was rather low and Germany didn't have access to any of the major sources. Indeed according to:
http://books.google.com/books?id=eCfMtp ... on&f=false
commercial production in the US didn't start until 1940.

...Thermobarics are different because they are designed to burn very hot and convert the aluminum to oxygen in the

There is no way a "Thermobaric" would convert Aluminum to Oxygen. That's a very complex nuclear process which I doubt has even been attmepted in a lab.

....the first TN weapon was nothing but a giant refrigerator complex.

???

What if you are looking at something like this, which keeps the mercury at a solid phase, holding the explosive compound in suspension, and then,

The colder the Mercury the less Plutonium can be held in solution. What explosive compound?

The diffas ithe mercury is allowed to come to room temperature at the target area, this secondary 'reagent' drops out of solution or colloid state and, upon coming together, activates and destabilizes?

????

... He also had a hand in defining _isomers_ which are the bollotechnic compounds that change shape when subjected to stress and dump a huge amount of energy as gamma radiation but very little in the way of MA nucleides.

Not according to the way I learned it or as it is defined here:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Isomer

Gamma is of course highly dangerous as a short term radiotoxin but it also creates a GREAT DEAL of plain old fashioned heat.

or not.

Which brings us back to a nuclear isomer driven thermobaric designed to ring every last drop of chemical energy out of a given explosive mix. And possibly initiate low level fusion in a plasticized deuterium compound.

?!!?!
[/quote]
.... She does not mention the lightning effects which are more common when you have 'unburnt' radionucleides still decaying down, causing massive static discharges. ...
[/quote]
In most of nature there are decaying radionucleides. I don't see them causing massive static discharges.

And what does 'R-Waffe' (the 'vacuum bomb') mean anyway? If A-Waffe means atomic could R-Waffe mean plutonium (Eka Rhenium)? This is important because it suggests a weaponization process somewhat like this:

A good question. Any support at all for the speculation after?

Two spheroid explosive charges with carefully designed voids inbetween.
Isomer Based Liquid 'Reagent' drops into voids and upon reaching a given quantity (by volume or by gamma intensity) both inner and outer explosive panels blow _doubling_ the shaped charge effect, just like Schumann suggested.

Shaped charges in WWII were rather crudely desined and poorly understood. This imlies rather the opposite. It also doesn't make much sense from what I know of them.

...ballotechnic state change between solid and plasma phases and dumps a HUGE amount of gamma down a tamper tube where heavy water or LD6 equivalent begins to fuse as an urchin of residual plutonium also lights off and you have a primary-boost-secondary, high efficiency, low volume, nuclear yield.

Care to explain that in a bit more detail? I had to look up ballotechnic and the defiition at http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&defl ... d=0CBIQkAE
seems to have little to nothing to do with state changes.

... My understanding is that this is nothing more or less than a high coherency neutron emitter (i.e. a Van de Graf generator).

A Vand de Graf generator is not a neutron emitter much less a coherent one. It is an electro static generator and thus cannot emit neutrons.

1942
Finish of the development of the 1 MeV van de Graaff neutron generator

Thus bringing the source into serious question.

.... This is what all those 'missing micronukes' back in the early 90s were about.

If they even existed.

NOW, think about what this means today, for a world looking at terrorism as stateless politics in which the technology to do the basic engineering has been reduced to PC levels of machine shop engineering.

Or not as a number of failures suggest.

..Oh, and 'vacuum bomb'? This is a reference to Quantum Potentialism, not atmospheric concussion/blast devices.

source PLS

When you cascade a high band isomer, you are encouraging whatever zero point field quantums are in effect to 'delossify' if not actively duct a massive amount of energy continuously out of the vacuum to magnify and prolong the existing effects.

Sounds like gibberish to me.

Which also helps explain what the lightning is about. Becaue, ordinarily, 100 grams of plutonium and another 10kg or so of uranium wouldn't have enough residual mass to cause those continuing nuclear reaction effects. But a torsion field duct might.

Care to explain how?

[scruffy]

crazy talk ,.........