General question: Straight or curved blade?

[Arto O]

Hi,
Very general question, but I think interesting. Why certain blades were straight and other curved (swords, knives etc)? This throught the whole history of humankind. Normally the straight blade is concerned to the western cultures, meanwhile the curved to eastern cultures, but this is very general. In the use of cavalry I can easily understand the use of curved ones, due to fast movement, but also in western cultures since when? From the time of Napoleon?
Thanks
Arto

[William Kramer]

Hello there,

The rudimentary way I understand it is that a curved blade is meant for lashing downwards on flesh, in a fluid motion, i.e. mounted Cavalry lashing down upon Infantrymen. The straight blade of a ground-soldier is meant for spearing and piercing flesh, not necessarily for slicing. I know your question is a little more in-depth than what I have stated, but I figured it couldn't hurt.

William Kramer

[Frederick Prinz]

Before Napoleon - it’s a complicated topic with a lot of variables, but I will start with that time period.

France: Heavy cavalry - straight sword. Light cavalry - curved. Infantry - short curved sword. England: Heavy cavalry - straight sword. Light cavalry - curved sword. Germans: curved sword.
Then the Germans later on, straight sword for the heavy cavalry. With the Russians copying the French. As did the U.S. to a very limited extent (and we don’t even want to get into the U.S. civil war.)

Mid 19th century: Some experimentation.

Last part of the 19th century: Russians going to sabers. A few years later for the Germans - general issue of the straight sword. The same for the British after the turn of the century. With the U.S. later also doing the same.

So what you have to look at are the wars and the battlefield experiences to see what changed in the way of tactics and weapons. Which is what made the countries get rid of the old and adopt new weapons. And that is the short - short - short version. FP

[Arto O]

Thanks William and Frederick Prinz,
It is very true about the experimentacion and later copying others. Few thoughts:
1. As I wrote before, the straight sword or edged weapon simbolize the western cultures and curved the eastern ones. For examples if we go more close to times what is about the forum; The divisional simbol of Wallonian 28th SS division: a straight sword crossing with a curved one. A west against east (in this case communism or what ever). Or in a case of Finnish coat of arms: A lion stepping over a curved sword and having a straight one on its hand.
2. Medieval times: I cannot remember medieval european curved swords. Could somebody imagine a crusade warrior carrying a curved one? Maybe the straight one simbolized at the same time the Christian cross.
3. Could the origen of medieval straight swords be in Roman "Gladius" swords?
4. The funny: could you imagine a curved SS dagger? That had looked were strange.

With best regards
Arto

[LWD]

Strait swords and knives are better at punching through armor curved ones at cutting when no or light armor is usually encountered.

[Frederick Prinz]

While I don’t disagree with what has been said. Because the entire history of humankind was the starting point it does get a little more complicated with technology and location becoming factors. With copper/ bronze age weapons being relatively small in size, and designed for thrusting because of the physical limitations of the materials. The stronger iron age weapons changed the picture with the Roman Gladius being able to be used for both thrusting and slashing, but still a relatively heavy short sword. Until we get to the age of better quality wrought iron and eventually steel. With the better quality steels the factor that allowed the development of the lighter weight curved blades specifically designed for slashing that would not fold up under impact. With that not the end of the story - but another starting point. FP

[Kristian S.]

The stronger iron age weapons changed the picture with the Roman Gladius being able to be used for both thrusting and slashing, but still a relatively heavy short sword. Until we get to the age of better quality wrought iron and eventually steel.

Not quite. The Romans did know the spatha which derived from the long celtic swords. The reason the gladius was a short sword was a tactical and not a technical one. Although Ceasar was describing Gallic swords bending on impact the material the romans used for their weapons was rather quality steel than just iron.

[Frederick Prinz]

Not quite. The Romans did know the spatha which derived from the long celtic swords. The reason the gladius was a short sword was a tactical and not a technical one. Although Ceasar was describing Gallic swords bending on impact the material the romans used for their weapons was rather quality steel than just iron.

Kristian, I’m thinking now that I could have been a little more precise in my presentation and wording. The Gladius (Hispanus) I believe predated the (straight bladed) Spatha. And there were also some of the happy accidents in metallurgy that were not understood at the time. Having more to do with the location of forges and their construction, the type of ore gathered etc. - than by design. With the Gallic's mentioned possibly being the Celtic cavalry auxiliaries? And the Gladius itself I believe gradually being replaced by the Spatha circa late second century AD onward. With consistent metallurgy still a long way to go, here is a quote from Wikipedia:

“The Gladius is generally made out of iron, while the ones carried by officers were often of higher quality and made out of bronze or occasionally steel. Eventually, Roman forging processes led to the creation of more steel edged blades by accident through trial and error of sword smiths while forging with charcoal.”

With no argument that as time went on, Roman equipment (and tactics) kept changing. With Best Regards, Frederick

[Fliegende Untertasse]

Curve in single edged cutting blade is simply a by-product of manufacturing process.

When piece iron is forged thinner from one side to make the edge, it also stretches along the thinned edge. This forces curve to the blade.

A stabbing sword needs to be straight . So it needs to be forged two bladed so that it is flattened symmetrically .
A two bladed tip also penetrates better.

On the other hand, when a sabre is swung the inertia of backward curved tip helps guiding the cutting edge forwards, so there is also a slight benefit of this shape.

[LWD]

Curve in single edged cutting blade is simply a by-product of manufacturing process.

When piece iron is forged thinner from one side to make the edge, it also stretches along the thinned edge. This forces curve to the blade.
....

It can be but isn't always. Look at scramasaxes for instance. Some have rather curved blades but some have very straight ones (where they come from seems to be a significant factor). SEe:
http://www.google.com/search?q=pictures ... d=0CFAQsAQ
Likewise if you look at falchions some are curved but many have quite strait edges of those that are curved often the curve is only near the tip. See:
http://www.google.com/search?q=falchion ... d=0CGQQsAQ

I should point out that a curve is often a biproduct of produceing a single edge tool but it's requires little extra work to eliminate the curve and produce a straight blade with but a single edge.

[omega_chile]

Hi Arto, I'm sure you know the Chilean corvo but thought I'd post for the benefit of other readers... Perhaps has Arabic origins as Chile has a large Arabic population (not exactly sure when they first started to migrate), or perhaps an evolution of a farming implement (probably the most obvious origin)...

Saludos hermano!

The Corvo is a bladed weapon typically used in Chile. It is a double-edged knife with a curved blade of approximately 12 inches. Initially a tool similar to a grape hook, it was widely used in combat during the War of the Pacific. It was not standard issue, but rather a personal weapon or tool that the soldiers brought with them from home.
Per local legend, Chilean soldiers would consume chupilca del diablo in order to drive themselves into a frenzy prior to close-combat, attacking the enemy with their corvos.

When fighting with a corvo, the wielder will not feint with the blade itself; traditionally it is used in conjunction with a rag, poncho or stick in the off-hand, which allows the bearer to parry an incoming attack. The corvo is then used to counterattack with a swiping, slashing or stabbing motion.

Due to its popularity, the Chilean army refined the weapon and added it to their arsenal. Today it is the traditional symbol of Chilean commandos and its use is encouraged in training.


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[scruffy]

blade styles have always changed over time . it is just a matter of taste and tradition -
personally i would not want to be cut by either type .
if you go back in time , the old sharpened stick was generally straight ,...
early cavalry sword were always straight ,..but changed over the centuries , to curved and then in its final evolution , back to straight again - i.e. the so called 'Patton sword ' .
the Japanese probably have developed the sword blade to its evolutionary zenith ,
mostly straight but with a slight curve -
i doubt that the blade can evolve any further than that of a quality , 500 year old , koto era samurai sword -

[HFK]

Hello, to make it easy to remember : Infantry officers had a straight blade, Cavalry officers had a curved one. I have grandfathers WW1 sword, and the blade is straight.
Regards,
Harry

[Der Max]

Royal Swedish Navy used curved sabres called "huggare" (choppers in swedish) in the 1700-1800s.

[Frederick Prinz]

Different nationalities brings another factor into the equation, and then there is the matter of the time period. With many cavalry officers for example having straight bladed swords such as this Imperial era Prussian Kürassier officer's sword, with the enlisted man's Kürassierpallasch M 1817 it used as the pattern next to it. With the Kürassierpallasch M 1817 themselves being captured Napoleonic era French model XI swords that were then used by the Prussians. With the heavy cavalry of the period being used primarily as shock troops, which goes back to the battlefield experiences mentioned earlier, to see what changed in the way of tactics and weapons as warfare evolved. FP