Old picture and KStN 1114 - 1Oct37

[GregSingh]

Wow, thanks!
I enabled e-mail in my profile, will it work now?
More stuff, just for fun really; but confirming that all those photos were taken in the same spot in a matters of hours rather than days. Guy who put previous pictures together sent me more. Here is really good! 65+, retired, but 20/20 vision. 
What was thought to be damage to photographic material looks like a wire hanging across with some cloth attached to it. Could be a Coat of arms of some sort? Might be a crown at the top and some white stuff across at the bottom. Middle seems to be transparent as it’s not covering that Kfz70 in full.
Tank commander clearly bends to avoid his head being cut off. That cloth seems to roll over the wire there.
Most of the footage is taken from US War Department Film Bulletin No48 you can find on YouTube.
That’s the best, HD quality we could find. Originally it’s from Ufa Ton-Woche 6th of Sep 39 issue. The most extend film coverage of the footage in the area is in the movie Feldzug in Polen. But we don’t have HD quality available. That one in circulation is of a poor quality.

[history1]

Sent you an email, please answer imedialy. It´s not possible to attach anything using this service of AHF.

[PeterKu]

Most likely the photo shows German MG-Gruppe of Schuetzenkompanie KStN 1114 - 1 Oct.1937
Schwere MG Gruppe from early-war KStN 1114 consisted of:
1x Kfz.15 - 1 Gr.Fuehrer, 1 E.Messer, 1 Melder, 1 Fahrer
2x Kfz.70 - 1 Gew.Fuehrer, 1 Richtschtz., 4 s.MG Schtz., 1 Fahrer
1x mc w/s - 1 Kradmelder
Source NARA T78 R424 (car and trucks) and T78 R659 (personnel)

[Gary Kennedy]

Peter,

Thanks very much for posting those scans, I've tried tracking down the composition of the early war Motorised units with only partial success. Do you by any chance have any details on the personnel allocation for 1114b of 1937? I'd assumed that each Rifle Pl included a light car for HQ personnel, but from the above scan it looks as though they travelled in a Kfz70 along with the 5-cm mortar det.

Gary

[PeterKu]

Kompanietrupp (13 men):
Kfz.15 mit G.K.– Komp.Fhr., Komp.Tr.Fhr., Melder (zgl.Hornist), Fahrer
Kfz.15 mit G.K. – Krank.Trag., 2х Melder, Fahrer
1 m.Krad – Uffz. Fhr.Kfz.Staffel
1 s.Krad mit Beiwg. – Kradmelder, Melder
2 m.Krad – je 1 Melder
1 Zug (55 men):
Kfz.70 – Zugfhr., Granatw.Fhr., 2x Gr.W.Schtz., Krankentr., Melder (zgl.Hornist), Fahrer
3x Kfz.70 – Gr.Fuehrer, 4x Gew.Schtz., 2x l.M.G.Schtz., Fahrer
3x Kfz.70 – Tr.Fuehrer, 3x Gew.Schtz., 2x l.M.G.Schtz., Fahrer
1 s.Krad mit Beiwg – Kradmelder, 2x Melder
2. Zug, 3.Zug – siehe 1. Zug
MG Gruppe (19 men)
Gefechts-Tross (13 men):
Kfz.15 mit G.K.– Hptfldw.(Fhr.), Sanitaets-Uffz., Fahrer
l.gl.Lkw – Geraet Uffz., Mun.-Geraet (???zgl.Schreiber???), Fahrer
l.gl.Lkw – Waffen Uffz., Fahrer
l.gl.Lkw – Waffemstr. Gehilfe (zgl. Begl.), Fahrer
l.gl.Lkw (mit Kochherd) – Koch (zgl.Begl.), Koch, Fahrer
Kfz.Inst.Trupp a (4 men):
s.Krad mit Beiwg. – Schirrm., Fahrer (zgl. Mot. Schl.)
Kfz.2/40 – Mot.Schl., Fahrer (zgl. Mot.Schl.)
Gepaeck-Tross (4 men):
1 m.Krad – Rechn.Fhr.
l.Lkw (o) – Schuhm., Schneider, Fahrer

These data were valid at the beginning of 1941, before the new KStN from 1.2.41.
They are different from the data KStN 1114 from 1.10.37.
1. According to AHM from 7.8.1940 each company KStN 1114/1114(gp) supposed to have 18 light machine guns (2 in each squad).
2. According to AHM from 21.11.1940 each Rifle Company was expected to have a car repair group of type "a".
Totals in the company KStN 1114 from 1.10.37: 216 men (4 officer, 31 non-commissioned officer and 181 soldiers), 3 5-cm mortars, 2 heavy and 9 light machine guns, 168 rifles, 48 pistols, 4 cars and 28 trucks, 10 motorcycles (6 with sidecars).
Totals in the company KStN 1114 by the scheme: 218 men, 3 5-cm mortars, 2 heavy and 18 light machine guns, 5 cars and 28 trucks, 10 motorcycles (6 with sidecars).
My opinion. By analogy with other KStN from 1.10.37 or 1.10.38, before changes in accordance with AHM the Schirrmeister (K) with s.Krad and 1 motor vehicle mechanic (zgl.Begl.) were in the combat train (totals 15 men). Kfz.2/40 with 1 driver and 1 motorcycle driver for Schirrmeister not present.

[Gary Kennedy]

Peter,

Blimey. I've been looking for that kind of detail for I've forgotten how many years, then it just pops up on the screen in front of me. Thank you very much, sir.

So, the original Motorised Schutzen Platoon was actually the same dismount as a standard early war Schutzen Platoon, with an officer, three messengers, a three-man mortar det (single 5-cm) and three 13-man squads. To motorise it they added seven Kfz70 light trucks, each with driver, and a single motorcycle and sidecar with rider, then attached the stretcher-bearer permanently to the platoon. I'd always worked backwards from the Nov 1941 organisation and assumed a lot of stuff, which is never a good idea. Continuing the guesswork though, I'd imagine it was quite straightforward to to increase the squads to two LMGs simply by converting one of the asst gunners to a gunner himself.

Would you happen to have anything re 1115 of Oct 1938, which increased the HMGs to a full Platoon in the Coy, and the MG Company proper (1116 I think)?

Thanks again,

Gary

[GregSingh]

Good stuff...So numbers for KStN 1114 - 1Oct37 are:

----------------Offz, Uffz, Mann, Gew, Pist, l.M.G.,s.M.G.,l.Gr.W.,Pkw,Lkw,Krad,Krad m B.
Gruppe Führer, 1, 2, 10, 11, 2, -, -, -, 2, -, 3, 1,
1.Schützenzug, 1, 7, 47, 44, 11, 3, -, 1, -, 7, -, 1,
2.Schützenzug, 1, 7, 47, 44, 11, 3, -, 1, -, 7, -, 1,
3.Schützenzug, 1, 7, 47, 44, 11, 3, -, 1, -, 7, -, 1,
s.M.G.Halbzug, -, 3, 16, 11, 8, -, 2, -, 1, 2, -, 1,
Gefechtstroß, -, 5, 10, 10, 5, -, -, -, 1, 4, -, 1,
Gepäcktroß, -, -, 4, 4, -, -, -, -, -, 1, 1, -;
GESAMT, 4, 31, 181, 168, 48, 9, 2, 3, 4, 28, 4, 6,

[GregSingh]

Gary,

KStN 1115 from Oct 38 is pretty straightforward:

Start with 1114 and

Add one kleiner Fernsprechtrupp c (mot) with 1u, 3m, 1Pkw.
3 x Schützenzug basically stays the same - just add one more lMG per Group
Double the sMG Halb-Zug to sMG Zug ( 1o, 6u, 31m, 4sMG, 2Pkw, 4 Lkw, but still only 1KmB ).
Gefechtstroß seems to lose one Lkw to now only 3, but gains 1KmB to two.
Gepäcktroß stays the same.

All together we now have 5o, 35u, 199m, 18lMG, 3lGrW, 4sMG, 6Pkw, 29Lkw, 4Krad and 7Krad mB.

Greg

[PeterKu]

Gary,

Here is the composition of the MG Kompanie „b“ (motoriziert):

Kompanietrupp (10 men):
Kfz.15 mit G.K.– Komp.Fhr., Komp.Tr.Fhr., Melder (zgl.Scherenfernr.), Fahrer
1 m.Krad – Uffz. Fhr.Kfz.Staffel
1 s.Krad mit Beiwg. – Kradmelder, Melder, Hornist
2 m.Krad – je 1 Melder
Nachrichtenstaffel (14 men: 1.-3. kleiner Fernsprechtrupp „a“ and 2 drivers)
Kfz.70 – Staffelfhr., 5 Fernspr., Fahrer
Kfz.70 – 6 Fernspr., Fahrer
1. M.G. Zug (38 men):
Kfz.15 mit G.K.– Zugfuehrer, R.I, E.Messer, Fahrer
1 s.Krad mit Beiwg. – Kradmelder, Melder
2x Kfz.70 – Gew.Fhr., 5x s.M.G.Schtz., Fahrer (and s.M.G.)
Kfz.15 mit G.K.–R.II, E.Messer, Melder, Fahrer
2x Kfz.70 – Gew.Fhr., 5x s.M.G.Schtz., Fahrer (and s.M.G.)
2. M.G. Zug (wie 1. Zug)
Granatwerfer-Zug (70 men):
Kfz.11 – Zugfuehrer, Uffz.z.b.V., Melder, Fahrer
1 s.Krad mit Beiwg. – Kradmelder, 2x Melder
3x Kfz.70 – Grupp.Fhr., Trupp.Fhr., 6 Schuetze, Fernsprecher, Fahrer (and s.G.W.)
3x Kfz.70 – Trupp.Fhr., E.Messer, 5 Schuetze, Fernsprecher, Fahrer (and s.G.W.)
3x Kfz.70 – Schuetze (zgl.Begleiter), Fahrer
Gefechts-Tross (14 men):
Kfz.15 mit G.K.– Hptfldw.(Fhr.Gef.Tr.), Geraet-Uffz., Fahrer
l.gl.Lkw (mit Kochherd) – Koch (zgl.Begl.), Koch, Fahrer
l.gl.Lkw – Waffen Uffz., Mun.-Geraet (???), Fahrer
2x l.gl.Lkw (Betriebstoff) – Waffenmstr. Gehilfe (zgl. Begl.), Fahrer
1 s.Krad mit Beiwg. – San.Uffz.
Kfz.Inst.Trupp a (4 men):
1 s.Krad mit Beiwg. – Schirrm., Fahrer (zgl. Mot. Schl.)
Kfz.2/40 – Mot.Schl., Fahrer (zgl. Mot.Schl.)
Gepaeck-Tross (4 men):
1 m.Krad – Rechn.Fhr.
l.Lkw (o) – Schneider (zgl.Begl.), Schuhm., Fahrer

Totals in the company KStN 1116 of 1.10.37: 190 men (4 officer, 30 NCO and 156 soldiers), 6 8-cm mortars, 8 heavy machine guns, 115 rifles, 75 pistols, 7 cars and 24 trucks, 10 motorcycles (6 with sidecars).
Totals in the company KStN 1116 by the scheme: plus 2 men, 1 car (Maintenance Section)

[Gary Kennedy]

Thanks again Peter, that's exactly what I've been looking for. It actually bears a very close resemblance to the superseding 1116 of Feb 1941, but with a larger signals det and a smaller Mortar Pl. I think you're correct re the formation of the Maint Det by drawing several personnel formerly in the Trains and adding the Kfz 2/40 and two more men. The Feb 1941 tables also look to have a added a Kraftfahrdienst, which I assume is something along the lines of an MT NCO in the British Army.

I have to admit to being slightly deflated at finding the mythical 1114/1115 KStNs were actually just a motorised Rifle Coy based on the same Squad and Platoon organisation! But, I'm still grateful I can now figure out the theoretical strength of the whole Bn, I wasn't too far off in some respects thankfully.

I didn't realise the info was held at NARA, it's not an archive I've dealt with. Do the two rolls you referenced contain all the info? Not that I'm doubting your transcription, I can tell it's spot on, but the collector in me loves to find contemporary documents where possible. I've still got the contact details for a researcher at BA-MA if the records are available from there as well, might treat myself in the New Year (Mayan Apocalypse allowing )

Thanks again, I shall be sure to give you full credit when updating the website!

Gary

[Steve Wilcox]

I would also like to thank Peter for sharing this information with us!

[PeterKu]

I am interested in this topic more than 10 years (not only KStN 1114 and 1115 .)
I have gained a lot NARA's rolls before I found this information. And I have checked it through other sources. I also gained a lot of knowledge and tips from the websites of Christoph Avender and Dr. Leo Niehorster (and from his books).