Who's signature is this in Königsberg 1943

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konnex
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Who's signature is this in Königsberg 1943

#1

Post by konnex » 26 Feb 2011, 18:16

Can anyone identify this signature? Image
thanks
Konnex

giselher
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Re: Who's signature is this in Königsberg 1943

#2

Post by giselher » 26 Feb 2011, 18:49

without knowing anything about the signature: could it be that the document is a fake? Were there any stamps as the one that can be seen on this cutout?

Tilman


Peter
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Re: Who's signature is this in Königsberg 1943

#3

Post by Peter » 26 Feb 2011, 19:40

I would be very suspicious of that document.

konnex
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Re: Who's signature is this in Königsberg 1943

#4

Post by konnex » 26 Feb 2011, 20:19

This document is a part of several documents set I found in an antique shop. It refers to some action regarding Jews in the area. I tried to establish who was the SS-Brigaderführer in Königsberg in May of 1943 but could not find that info, maybe this is the way to go.
thanks for help thus far
Konnex

giselher
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Re: Who's signature is this in Königsberg 1943

#5

Post by giselher » 26 Feb 2011, 23:36

Hi Konnex,

I would still be very suspicious that the document is a fake. If you post more of the content, maybe the experts will be able to tell. Please be aware that a lot of SS-related documents are forgeries and as you are saying that the documents might be related to the Holocaust, this would make me even more suspicious.... T.

Max Williams
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Re: Who's signature is this in Königsberg 1943

#6

Post by Max Williams » 27 Feb 2011, 02:34

This is a total fantasy piece. No SS-Brig. had that signature and the stamp is 100% a made up piece.
Max.

konnex
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Re: Who's signature is this in Königsberg 1943

#7

Post by konnex » 27 Feb 2011, 17:30

Max Williams wrote:This is a total fantasy piece. No SS-Brig. had that signature and the stamp is 100% a made up piece.
Max.
OK it might be so, you guys are much more into it than I am, but I'm also enough experienced in life to know that we don't know everything. Nevertheless, enclosed is a picture of the whole document. One other document from this bunch (a train transportation schedule of Jews to Treblinka signed by SS officer) I checked with the Warsaw Museum staff and they claim it to be original, in fact they have a similar one but for a different transport. With these documents there were several presentation pages of Polish stamps made in Oflags (Gross Rosen and Murnau I believe) and they all turned out to be original which I checked several years ago. So of course this particular document might be fake, it's just somewhat strange to find it among other original ones. A signature on this other document has a first letter similar to this first document but otherwise it's obviously quite different.
again thanks a lot for any input,
Konnex
Image
Image
Last edited by konnex on 27 Feb 2011, 18:00, edited 2 times in total.

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Michael Miller
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Re: Who's signature is this in Königsberg 1943

#8

Post by Michael Miller » 27 Feb 2011, 17:37

Konnex~

Could you please post larger scans? I'm especially interested in the second scan, which has the signer's title ("SS- und Polizeiführer im Distrikt ________").

~ Mike

konnex
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Re: Who's signature is this in Königsberg 1943

#9

Post by konnex » 27 Feb 2011, 18:02

Michael Miller wrote:Konnex~

Could you please post larger scans? I'm especially interested in the second scan, which has the signer's title ("SS- und Polizeiführer im Distrikt ________").

~ Mike
I just did that........
Konnex

giselher
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Re: Who's signature is this in Königsberg 1943

#10

Post by giselher » 27 Feb 2011, 19:01

It is intelligently made, but looking at the whole text of the page, it becomes clear, that this is made up.

The different elements on the page simply don't go together in this way. On the one hand you have Abschrift, i.e. copy. then you have the naming of a "sender". Then you have a text that is obviously quoted an you don't get the connection and then you have the stamp and the signature.

The intelligent part is that the main text is obviously taken from a book or a well written article. In this way, the forger was able to avoid mistakes in the text. But he missed the fact that the elements simply don't go together the way he composed them.

We probably should not say more, otherwise the next forgery will be much better in that respect.

Tilman

AliasDavid
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Re: Who's signature is this in Königsberg 1943

#11

Post by AliasDavid » 27 Feb 2011, 22:50

It's a direct quote from the Stroop report (see Josef Wulf: Das Dritte Reich und seine Vollstrecker, München u.a.O. 1978, S. 74). According to Wulf, that part of the Stroop report was taken from a lecture held by one Waldemar Schön (see Wulf, a.a.O. S. 82). By the way, in 1943 there was no post of KdS im Bezirk Königsberg. Apparently Warschau was replaced with Königsberg in the "document".
UlrichH

konnex
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Re: Who's signature is this in Königsberg 1943

#12

Post by konnex » 27 Feb 2011, 23:14

Wow, you guys really know your stuff - thanks a lot, that's good information - it just makes me wonder why would anybody go to these lengths to make up such a document??? It seems to serve no purpose. I wonder about my other documents even though one of them was almost the same as the one in Warsaw Uprising Museum - so coincidental I visited this museum today for 2h, it was so crowded Sunday is no charge day. Maybe I'll put up one by one the other ones and see what you think of it.
thanks
konnex

AliasDavid
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Re: Who's signature is this in Königsberg 1943

#13

Post by AliasDavid » 27 Feb 2011, 23:37

Here's the "signature": http://www.holocaust-history.org/works/ ... trp074.jpg (Jesuiter).
UlrichH

konnex
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Re: Who's signature is this in Königsberg 1943

#14

Post by konnex » 28 Feb 2011, 00:01

AliasDavid wrote:Here's the "signature": http://www.holocaust-history.org/works/ ... trp074.jpg (Jesuiter).
UlrichH
So it is the real signature - and it looks original - this signature is all over the place in the Stroop's Report I just reviewed it; who is that officer who signed my document and all the documents in the Stroop's report as to their truth/originality (F.d.R.d.A.). My document is also an Abschrift but a month later than Stroop's. What does this mean? This is good, so what do all of you that commented before think??
Konnex

giselher
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Re: Who's signature is this in Königsberg 1943

#15

Post by giselher » 28 Feb 2011, 16:36

Sorry, but I can't get the link to work I am afraid.

Anyway, what is the background of the question: Do you think that the document is finally turning out to be real?

I am convinced it is a fake. If I were you and if you paid considerable money for the papers, I would take them back and insist on a refund... Tilman

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