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Third Reich signatures.

Discussions on Axis documents, postcards, posters and other paper items as well as feldpost numbers.

Re: Third Reich signatures.

Postby hucks216 on 09 Feb 2013 11:06

Here is a possible example of Albert Speer's signature.
Last weekend a dealer had an update on a Sunday morning and amongst the items were a load of Promotion/Appointment citations with most being for just 25 Euros each (including this one). Looking through most of them there wasn't much to most of the others, no counter-signatures etc, except one that was to a future Luftwaffe DKiG winner (25 Euros - but I left that one), and this one. I looked at it on the site and thought that I recognised the signature and checking my files saw it resembled that of Albert Speer so wasn't sure if it was a case of the dealer not having done his homework and not recognising the signature or it was priced low due to doubts as to the originality. But for 25 Euros I thought it was worth the gamble. The first image is a photo, the second a scan.
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Re: Third Reich signatures.

Postby Ian Sayer on 09 Feb 2013 11:16

Looks sot on for a 1944 Speer signature to me! A good buy I'd say.
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Re: Third Reich signatures.

Postby hucks216 on 09 Feb 2013 11:41

Many thanks for the confirmation Ian. Seems like there are still occaisional bargains to be had from time to time.
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Re: Third Reich signatures.

Postby Ian Sayer on 09 Feb 2013 11:44

Indeed but I think 'occasionally' is the operative word these days. Good luck with the hunt!
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Re: Third Reich signatures.

Postby Alfred A Arnold on 14 Mar 2013 06:18

Her full name was Francis Ida Arnold, He never served with Himmler staff to my knowledge but was one of his many officers.
I have family photos if I can work out how to post them,
He was I am told my great Uncle and George Arnold was his younger brother
my grand father, unfortunately both my father and myself were named after him.
If any one has information as to his death or any history after 1942 please let me know.
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Re: Third Reich signatures.

Postby saint11 on 11 Apr 2013 16:59

@hucks216 & Ian Sayer, if you wanna tell the forum:
1. Adolf Hitler & Albert Speer REAL autographs are available for 25 Euros :o
2. that this is an "occaisional bargain" 8O
then I doubt it's "operative" - "Good luck with the hunt!" :wink:
reading hucks' post thoroughly unveils the naked truth: it's a "photo" respectively a "scan" :roll:
if you can sell photos or scans for 25 Euros each - THAT would be a real "bargain" for the seller indeed :idea:
if you sell a thousand copies for 25 each, you 'earn' 25,000 Euros & still have the original 8-)
A good sell I'd say. "Seems like there are still occaisional bargains...from time to time" :cry:
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Re: Third Reich signatures.

Postby hucks216 on 11 Apr 2013 21:31

Not quite sure if I'm understating you properly. The Hitler signature is a commonly seen stamped/autopen version. It's the Speer signature that is handsigned. And as for the photo/scanned bit, the image of the whole document is the photo as the citation is too large for my scanner, while the close up of the Speer signature is scanned as I put that area onto the scanner.
Bargains are rare but they do crop up from time to time. Only last year I was able to acquire a Gestapo related 5 citation set which contained two hand signed signatures of Reinhard Heydrich. And as with the Speer signed citation, the dealer - another German based one - hadn't done his homework and never recognised who the signature belonged to. I picked that up for just over £200!

And as for the selling, the citation isn't for sale. It is staying in my collection of approximately 400+ award and Promotion citations. I did sell the Gestapo set though as I already had (and still have) 2 examples of Heydrich's signature. Selling that set enabled me to buy a very nice Grossdeutschland officer paperwork grouping.
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Re: Third Reich signatures.

Postby valkyrie on 11 Apr 2013 23:14

Here is a bargain although nothing like Hucks' Heydrich coup. I got this on ABE, a first edition "To the Bitter End" signed by author and Operation Valkyrie personality Hans Bernd Gisevius for $80.

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Re: Third Reich signatures.

Postby saint11 on 12 Apr 2013 10:04

@hucks, thx for your prompt response & confirmation. you said: "The Hitler signature is a commonly seen stamped/autopen version"
what is it then? printed, stamped or autopen? how can one tell the difference? have you ever seen a REAL one of A.H. or Speer?
I mean REAL authentic, not a copied or otherwise reproduced one. you seem to be a serious collector with your 400+ documents.
do you read and understand german? I am rather new to this forum and would need some help with questions about authenticity
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Re: Third Reich signatures.

Postby hucks216 on 12 Apr 2013 17:18

Stamped signatures tend to have small air bubbles when viewed under magnification and stamped/autopen/printed signatures tend to lack visible cross-over strokes when things are signed by hand to put it basically. If collecting paperwork and signatures it is wise to buy the relevant books on the subject such as Charles Hamilton's books on the autographs of various Third Reich personalities. When it comes to collecting paperwork - and I refer to award citations here - you need to have a knowledge of such things as Order Of Battles, Commanding Officers, Authorising levels and so on so you know who the signature is supposed to be, at what rank & position and time frame, not to mention the relevant unit - but even then there are always exceptions such as a commanding officer going on leave (or injured) and so for a period of a couple of weeks or so the citations being signed by a temporary commander (who might not of been noted in the history books as a temporary commander), or a division 'borrowing' a regiment or battalion from another division so you might have a discrepancy between the regiment the soldier belonged to and the unit that has authorised the award. If you are going to collect paperwork you will need to build up a large library of relevant books.
I have seen original AH signatures up close and in fact own one on a 1936 dated promotion citation. AH signatures are a minefield as it is very heavily faked and again I point you towards the Hamilton books to give you a grounding. The Speer signature I posted above is a real one.
I don't read or speak German. That is to say I couldn't hold a conversation in German or read a German newspaper but I know enough to help decipher such things as Wehrpasse, Soldbucher and Urkunde - although deciphering the actual handwriting can be a different matter!!
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Re: Third Reich signatures.

Postby saint11 on 17 Apr 2013 17:57

@hucks, thx again for your detailed description. you really seem to be a specialist. therefore some more questions:
1. would you be so kind to post the one REAL hitler autograph of yours here? how did you get it?
2. did you ever see one written with a pencil, which is kind of 'imprinted', showing even the dents by his mighty hand
3. ever heard about fakes of that version? (cannot be stamped, copied or printed?)
4. it is on a postcard sent from Weimar, where AH was on march 6th 1932 on his election campaign
5. it contains german handwriting in old german style. who could read & translate that?
will try to post pics if there is interest
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Re: Third Reich signatures.

Postby hucks216 on 21 Apr 2013 11:42

saint11 wrote:@hucks, thx again for your detailed description. you really seem to be a specialist. therefore some more questions:
1. would you be so kind to post the one REAL hitler autograph of yours here? how did you get it?
2. did you ever see one written with a pencil, which is kind of 'imprinted', showing even the dents by his mighty hand
3. ever heard about fakes of that version? (cannot be stamped, copied or printed?)
4. it is on a postcard sent from Weimar, where AH was on march 6th 1932 on his election campaign
5. it contains german handwriting in old german style. who could read & translate that?
will try to post pics if there is interest


There have been a few original AH signed citations on the market in the past 12 months. Here is one...
http://www.wehrmacht-awards.com/forums/ ... =Bittrolff

The owner is actually selling that group although unfortunately he has decided to split it up. The AH citation is still available but at 950 Euros it is a bit pricey as I have seen three similar citation types for sale and they ranged from 6-700 Euros
For Sale Listing... http://www.wehrmacht-awards.com/forums/ ... ost5852222

2. There are loads of Hitler signed photos on the market - unfortunately 99% of them are fake and the 'dents' are from the mighty hand of the faker, not of the Dictator. Here is a Search result for 'Hitler' in the paperwork section of WAF - just have a read through the relevant ones to see examples of fakes (and some originals)...
http://www.wehrmacht-awards.com/forums/ ... d=10383320
Why not post your photo there as well as here to see what the concensus is?
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Re: Third Reich signatures.

Postby saint11 on 24 Apr 2013 08:06

@hucks, this time your answer is not very satisfactory because
1. you did NOT post YOUR REAL Hitler signature, which you said you OWN
2. you even did not say where you got your autograph from, which could be helpful to rule out fakes completely
3. instead you post somebody elses copies, which are pretty dubious because
a) could not find any reliable information about any Oberst and Kommandeur "Infanterie Regiment 70" Harald Bittrolff
instead: http://www.lexikon-der-wehrmacht.de/Gli ... r/IR70.htm & viewtopic.php?f=5&t=198016
b) very unlikely that in his resumé he never mentioned any military rank, just "Ofizier, Kommandeur"
c) how can YOU tell handwritten (Generaloberst Fromm) from facsimile (General der Infanterie Stapf) signatures?
d) if generals used facsimile, "der Führer" even more likely. "ink hand-signed by Adolf Hitler"?
e) "950 Euros" for a facsimile and/or fake "is a bit pricey" indeed
4. you are perfectly right: "There are loads of Hitler signed photos on the market - unfortunately 99% of them are fake
5. but how do YOU know: "the 'dents' are from the mighty hand of the faker, not of the Dictator" - from a distance?
6. you did NOT answer my question, if you've ever seen a dented faked autograph. I guess NOT!
7. your 'there' link: http://www.wehrmacht-awards.com/forums/ ... d=10383320
is simply useless: "Sorry - no matches. Please try some different terms"
8. you ask: "Why not post your photo there as well as here to see what the concensus is?" do you mean "consensus"?
THAN we reach a consensus, if you do not demand from others what you are not willing to do yourself. fair enough?
9. last but not least:
you said that you cannot read german handwriting. where do we find specialists who understand & translate it?
did Adolf Hitler speak English, French & Russian?
did Churchill, Chamberlain, Roosevelt & Stalin speak German & understood Hitler??
I'll try a text HERE, can YOU read & understand it (or someone else?)
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Re: Third Reich signatures.

Postby hucks216 on 24 Apr 2013 09:38

1. My choice not to show it. If that's not to your liking then apologies but that's how it is.
2. I get my items from dealers and contacts that I trust. You will find alot of collectors won't/don't reveal where they get items from.
3a) Reserach. See attached image of the DAL dated for 01 Mai 1941 showing Oberst Bittrolff in IR 66. Considering the EK Spange citation is dated for later on in 1941 it is fair to assume that he moved from IR 66 to IR 70 in mid 1941, or after the information was compiled in the Dienstaltersliste. The DAL for 01 Mai 1942 will show that if he was still with IR 70 by then - he may of only been with IR 70 on a temporary basis. Without looking at his personnel files it might not be possible to be 100% sure. In 1944 he commanded Pz.Gren.Rgt 66.
3b) Not sure what you mean. Bittrolff's rank is mentioned.
3c) Homework. Years & years of homework and asking polite questions. There seems to be a growing trend of collectors not willing (or not wanting) to put in the time and legwork of looking at other examples (real and fake) and not building up a library of books and files to help them, instead just relying on the files and experience of others who have put in the time. While this is great if others are willing to help, at the end of the day it is not as good as building up your own experience and libarary. Forums are great but if you're stood at a table at a militaria fair looking at something you only have your own experience to rely on.
3d) Don't understand your question.
3e) The AH signed citation that was listed for 950 Euros is the very same AH signed citation as shown in the first linked thread. It was pricey at 950 Euros but a) it was original, and b) it has sold so someone was happy to pay the asking price.
5) When it comes to signed photos i steer well clear as they are easy to fake. All you need is a photo and a pencil/pen. If 99% of the signed photos are fake then it stands to reason that the 'mighty hand' will tend to be the forgers. There are others that study period photos and signatures on such things. I prefer to stick to collecting Urkunde.
6) Any signed photo (or piece of paper) will have dents on it if the pen/pencil is pressed hard enough. You don't have to see one to know that. A hand is a hand.
7) The items have all sold so that listing no longer exists.

You come across as fairly confrontational. If that is just me then I apologise but if it does seem that way to others then don't be surprised if no-one steps forward to help you.
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Re: Third Reich signatures.

Postby John G. on 24 Apr 2013 14:25

saint11,
"hucks216" is truely an expert of German signatures/documents/etc. and knows what he's talking about.....I agree 100% with how he responded to your inquiry....

It's well known Hitler actually signed "relatively few" documents & certificates....only the highest national awards or, very rarely, things for "Old Fighters"/special circumstances....of course, he did sign a few "autographs" in the early days....post cards and the like....but these would, again, be exceptionally rare.....(and many have "printed" signatures, too!)

Whether anyone "shares" thier personal collections with others is a private matter....I seldom do it myself! You should be greatful for the assistance you've received....and not be confrontational. That will get you "nothing".....
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