I hope no one would be bored to hear again about the movie SAVING PRIVATE RYAN, BUT I had to post this to see what others would think about this incident.
I have heard that is NOT possible for the Germans to make such a mistake as driving into an ambush, so I did spend time trying to see if there were incidents in which the Germans could make such a mistake.
Well I FOUND one.
The British author Michael Reynolds (an expert on German WWII panzer tactics and was a major general in the British Army) wrote the book STEEL INFERNO. The book tells the history of the German 1st SS PANZER CORPS, and it describes and analyzes the various tactics and strategies this German panzer unit used during the war.
On pages 130-131 you will find an incident that occurred on June 13, 1944, at Villers-Bocage, France.
Yes, my friends, the SAME date and location where the German tank ace Michael Wittmann knock out all those Cromwell and Firefly Sherman tanks.
I dedicated this summary of the incident to ALL British WW II veterans who fought very bravely:
On June 13, 1944 at 1300 hours a few Tigers and Mk IV tanks advanced through the town of Villers-Bocage WITHOUT infantry support and were easily destroyed by British infantry armed with sticky bombs, PIATs, and 6-pounder anti-tank guns.
At least ONE Tiger and one Mk IV tank were KNOCKED out by PIATs and by sticky bombs DROPPED from upper floor windows or THROWN from ground floors.
The wreckage of six Tigers and two Mk IV tanks were found in the town after the battle.
I guess this shows that Germans are ONLY human.
Germans will make BAD decisions, mistakes, and blunders every now and then.
What makes the above incident look really BAD is that the Germans did not even bother to send a reconnaissance unit ahead to check out the town. They could have save themselves a lot of GRIEF if they only did that!
If you study the history of WWII, you will probably find other similar incidents like the one above. I ASSUME this was not the first or the last time the Germans made such a mistake.
End Battle - SAVING PRIVATE RYAN - Based on TRUE INCIDENT ?
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subskipper
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I think some people have a tendency to make the Germans out to be some sort of super soldiers that under no circumstance would allow themselves to be fooled, tricked or otherwise outsmarted. At least not tactically. As you say, the Germans were after all only human, and I'm pretty certain that during the course of the war they did make some mistakes that could be called amateurish. Naturally, this is only my humble opinion. 
~Henric Edwards
~Henric Edwards
I think that what happen to German tank crews at Villers-Bocage, France, was pretty sad, but something like that will ALWAYS happen in war because of the following factors:
1. Wars are unpredictable and dangerous.
2. Commanders and soldiers make BAD decisions and mistakes.
3. Wars are not always fought under "ideal" conditions:
-very little or no infantry, artillery support, and etc.
-unavailable, wrong, inadequate, and unreliable weapons.
-terrain is difficult to navigate, hinder the attackers and favors the enemy by providing cover and concealment
-bad weather
-little or no ammunition
- and many other reasons.
So when you combine the above factors together, you will eventually see disastrous outcomes like that in war.
I believe the Germans REALLY did their best with the men and tanks they had available, but apparently their plan for attacking the town backfired on them.
1. Wars are unpredictable and dangerous.
2. Commanders and soldiers make BAD decisions and mistakes.
3. Wars are not always fought under "ideal" conditions:
-very little or no infantry, artillery support, and etc.
-unavailable, wrong, inadequate, and unreliable weapons.
-terrain is difficult to navigate, hinder the attackers and favors the enemy by providing cover and concealment
-bad weather
-little or no ammunition
- and many other reasons.
So when you combine the above factors together, you will eventually see disastrous outcomes like that in war.
I believe the Germans REALLY did their best with the men and tanks they had available, but apparently their plan for attacking the town backfired on them.
I sincerely doubt that the incident in question was the sparking point for the end battle of SPR, to be honest. And there could be multiple reason why the amour had to go through Villers, maybe time was against them and maybe they did not know that the British troops were there. But infantry are a tanks worst nightmare and most tankers would be reluctant to put themselves in a position where they would be involved with enemy infantry, without there own infantry as support.
True Germans are only human
and can be tricked into ambushes as can all troops and they were on numerous occasions. However, the troops in question were supposed to be the 2nd SS Das Reich and I would doubt very much that they would have waltzed into Rammelle like they did in the movie. With the Tigers in tow they would have at the very least softened up the target with a few HE rounds first. After all they knew that there were American troops stationed in the town, near the bridge as they "beat the hell.." out of them earlier.
The end battle is simply Speilbergs bravo ending for his movie thats all. A far more realistic ending would have been if the rolls were reversed. With a small band of German soldiers defending the bridge against overwhelming odds. But Speilberg would hardly be original enough to do that, would he.
But lets not forget. The Waffen SS troops were winning the battle until the American reinforcements and P-51...er "tankbusters" :roll: arrived.
Tony
True Germans are only human
and can be tricked into ambushes as can all troops and they were on numerous occasions. However, the troops in question were supposed to be the 2nd SS Das Reich and I would doubt very much that they would have waltzed into Rammelle like they did in the movie. With the Tigers in tow they would have at the very least softened up the target with a few HE rounds first. After all they knew that there were American troops stationed in the town, near the bridge as they "beat the hell.." out of them earlier.The end battle is simply Speilbergs bravo ending for his movie thats all. A far more realistic ending would have been if the rolls were reversed. With a small band of German soldiers defending the bridge against overwhelming odds. But Speilberg would hardly be original enough to do that, would he.
But lets not forget. The Waffen SS troops were winning the battle until the American reinforcements and P-51...er "tankbusters" :roll: arrived.
Tony
Well you also see an almost similar situation in the book and movie A BRIDGE TOO FAR. The British 1st Airborne, 2nd Parachute Battalion, captured Arnhem bridge and defended it against repeated attacks by the Germans.tonyh wrote:After all they knew that there were American troops stationed in the town, near the bridge as they "beat the hell.." out of them earlier.
The end battle is simply Speilbergs bravo ending for his movie thats all. A far more realistic ending would have been if the rolls were reversed. With a small band of German soldiers defending the bridge against overwhelming odds. But Speilberg would hardly be original enough to do that, would he.
But lets not forget. The Waffen SS troops were winning the battle until the American reinforcements and P-51...er "tankbusters" :roll: arrived.
Tony
And it also shows (Monday 9/18/1944) that disastrous raid by the
Reconnaissance Battalion of the 9th SS Panzer Division under Hauptsturmfuhrer (Captain) Paul Grabner who tried to overrun the British position by attacking with personnel carriers and armoured cars across the bridge.
The British paratroopers ambushed the Germans and mowed many of them down with machine gun, rifle, and PIAT anti-tank weapons.
Grabner himself was killed and over 20 personnel carriers and armoured cars being destroyed.
I assumed that German attack was really a BAD decision since it would make MORE sense for the Germans to use tanks and artillery to attack those British paratroopers.
tonyh wrote: the troops in question were supposed to be the 2nd SS Das Reich and I would doubt very much that they would have waltzed into Rammelle like they did in the movie. With the Tigers in tow they would have at the very least softened up the target with a few HE rounds first. After all they knew that there were American troops stationed in the town, near the bridge as they "beat the hell.." out of them earlier.
Well in the movie I believe the Germans had gone into Ramelle to capture the bridge, and yes the Tiger tanks could have fired their cannons into the buildings to flush out the Americans.
But that would not kill all the Americans soldiers and the Americans could still inflict casualties by using their .30 caliber machine gun , Browning Automatic Rifle, grenades, mortar shells, bazookas, and other guns.
The Americans could have also retreated across the bridge and blow it up, which would leave the Tiger tanks and Germans troops stuck on the other side of the river.
The situation in Arnhem and the scene in Ramelle are very different situations and cannot really be compared.Well you also see an almost similar situation in the book and movie A BRIDGE TOO FAR. The British 1st Airborne, 2nd Parachute Battalion, captured Arnhem bridge and defended it against repeated attacks by the Germans.
Reconnaissance Battalion of the 9th SS Panzer Division under Hauptsturmfuhrer (Captain) Paul Grabner who tried to overrun the British position by attacking with personnel carriers and armoured cars across the bridge.
The British paratroopers ambushed the Germans and mowed many of them down with machine gun, rifle, and PIAT anti-tank weapons.[\quote]
I'm aware of Grabner's attack, but again its a completely different senario than the one in SPR. The Germans were well aware of John Frosts paras, but had no real tactical choice but to launch a head long rush accross the bridge. There was simply no other way to reach the other side and no time either if they wanted to gain the upper hand. The result of Grabners assualt was always a non starter. But if an option was available it could have been taken.
I assumed that German attack was really a BAD decision since it would make MORE sense for the Germans to use tanks and artillery to attack those British paratroopers.[\quote]
It was a decision borne from nesscessity and desperation rather than a bad decision, to be fair to the Gerries. Also there wasn't much artilery in the area for the 9th and 10th SS divisions to use. Which were
understrength and resting in the area to begin with.
Tony
Tonyh, you said "However, the troops in question were supposed to be the 2nd SS Das Reich and I would doubt very much that they would have waltzed into Rammelle like they did in the movie" Can you shed some light on what you said about waltzed into Rammelle... Is that a town, or is that the town near were that bridge is? Or if anyone can help please thank you!!
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JodelFlieger
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Hi there
With regard to the Grabner assault on the bridge,in ABTF, I think that Ian Kershaw's book on the topic outlines German Wehrmacht officers expressing dismay that the attack had gone ahead, knowing full well that Frost's men had established good positions and would wipe out the attackers.Another point is that any Allied account of Arnhem is laden with accounts of continuous German mortar fire.The Germans had plenty of heavy firepower on hand in Arnhem and could have shelled Frost's men long before Grabner's wasteful assault. Grabner clearly expected to simply brush the British aside, but exp[ecting to do so with armoured cars and SPWs was a long shot, to day the least....Also, as Kershaw points out, the Germans, several times, allowed groups of men to become fatally exposed to Allied fire as they formed up.They seemd to have a fatal talent for not probing ahead or putting out perimeter security and suffering for it.
regards
JF
With regard to the Grabner assault on the bridge,in ABTF, I think that Ian Kershaw's book on the topic outlines German Wehrmacht officers expressing dismay that the attack had gone ahead, knowing full well that Frost's men had established good positions and would wipe out the attackers.Another point is that any Allied account of Arnhem is laden with accounts of continuous German mortar fire.The Germans had plenty of heavy firepower on hand in Arnhem and could have shelled Frost's men long before Grabner's wasteful assault. Grabner clearly expected to simply brush the British aside, but exp[ecting to do so with armoured cars and SPWs was a long shot, to day the least....Also, as Kershaw points out, the Germans, several times, allowed groups of men to become fatally exposed to Allied fire as they formed up.They seemd to have a fatal talent for not probing ahead or putting out perimeter security and suffering for it.
regards
JF
There's a number of problems with this...
1. Mortar fire is not "heavy" unless we are talking about large caliber, nor is it that accurate. I am unaware of what mortar equipment the Germans had at hand.
2. The Germans probably felt that the paras had to be dislodged and quickly before the larger units arrived on the scene and the only options open was a direct assualt accross the bridge.
3. We don't know how Grabner felt about the attack he led, before or during.
4. We will have to establish what equipment the 9th and 10th SS divs had on hand before making an assumption that armoured cars and SPWs were chosen instead of heavier material. Remember, the 9th and 10th had been transfered from the Eastern Front for rest and refit and were severly understrength.
Tony
1. Mortar fire is not "heavy" unless we are talking about large caliber, nor is it that accurate. I am unaware of what mortar equipment the Germans had at hand.
2. The Germans probably felt that the paras had to be dislodged and quickly before the larger units arrived on the scene and the only options open was a direct assualt accross the bridge.
3. We don't know how Grabner felt about the attack he led, before or during.
4. We will have to establish what equipment the 9th and 10th SS divs had on hand before making an assumption that armoured cars and SPWs were chosen instead of heavier material. Remember, the 9th and 10th had been transfered from the Eastern Front for rest and refit and were severly understrength.
Tony
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JodelFlieger
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Hi Tonyh
The Germans probably had 81mm mortars at hand, with possibly 120mm.All of the Arnhem stuff that I have ever read makes comment on the severity and accuracy of German mortar fire.They would have had accurate street maps as well as much better local knowledge than the British.I don't have a German Orbat to hand but I've never heard of any German(especially SS) formation doing without mortars.
I accept your second point.This would coincide with the confusion prevalent on both sides and the Germans' desire to nail the British as quickly as possible.
On your third point,I have read an account from the German side(possibly in the After the Battle series) about the Grabner attack, which quoted several German survivors of the bridge assault, who stated that Grabner was confident of victory, which I'd say is a natural thing to say, ie,we expected to win and were shocked that we didn't.
Weren't there StuGIIIs available? There are photos of them in the area of the bridge.
regards
JF
The Germans probably had 81mm mortars at hand, with possibly 120mm.All of the Arnhem stuff that I have ever read makes comment on the severity and accuracy of German mortar fire.They would have had accurate street maps as well as much better local knowledge than the British.I don't have a German Orbat to hand but I've never heard of any German(especially SS) formation doing without mortars.
I accept your second point.This would coincide with the confusion prevalent on both sides and the Germans' desire to nail the British as quickly as possible.
On your third point,I have read an account from the German side(possibly in the After the Battle series) about the Grabner attack, which quoted several German survivors of the bridge assault, who stated that Grabner was confident of victory, which I'd say is a natural thing to say, ie,we expected to win and were shocked that we didn't.
Weren't there StuGIIIs available? There are photos of them in the area of the bridge.
regards
JF
Well, I don't know for sure what the arty strength was of the 9th SS. But IIRC, they did leave a very large amount of equipment in Russia, while they moved to the relative safety of Arnhem to make up their numbers. But arty fire will not dislodge infantry by itself, it has to be supported.
If you have postable accounts of German opinions on Grabners ill fated attack accross the bridge, then please post it, I'll read em!
But, whatever opinion one has of Grabners attack, he was only a Captain and probably had little choice in its execution anyway.
Also, as you say, Grabner would hardly say to his troops "Hey lads, we're going to fly accross the bridge and fail miserably in the face of the enemy...who's with me?".
In addition, The 9th may have had StuG's and they also have some tanks, if I remember, but the problem was the they had to attack on a very narrow scope...ie across a bridge...and fast.
Tony
If you have postable accounts of German opinions on Grabners ill fated attack accross the bridge, then please post it, I'll read em!
But, whatever opinion one has of Grabners attack, he was only a Captain and probably had little choice in its execution anyway.
Also, as you say, Grabner would hardly say to his troops "Hey lads, we're going to fly accross the bridge and fail miserably in the face of the enemy...who's with me?".
In addition, The 9th may have had StuG's and they also have some tanks, if I remember, but the problem was the they had to attack on a very narrow scope...ie across a bridge...and fast.
Tony
By the way, here's a site that may be of interest. I haven't gone throught it my self yet though.
http://www.defendingarnhem.com/
Tony
http://www.defendingarnhem.com/
Tony
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panzertruppe2001
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Re:
Why Das Reich troops? The battle in the film occurred on June 13 1944. That is the date in Captain Miller tomb. In this date Das Reich was in the South of France.However, the troops in question were supposed to be the 2nd SS Das Reich and I would doubt very much that they would have waltzed into Rammelle like they did in the movie. With the Tigers in tow they would have at the very least softened up the target with a few HE rounds first. After all they knew that there were American troops stationed in the town, near the bridge as they "beat the hell.." out of them earlier.
I suppose the SS troops of the film must be Götz von Berlichingen troops. It was the only SS division in the zone in June 1944. I do not remember but I think that in the film is mentioned Das Reich division but I suppose is wrong
Panzertruppe2001