Patton (the movie)!

[M55ikael]

Patton is one of the most celebrated Hollywood WWII movies of all time, and once I got around to seeing it I was quite surprised to find such blatant historical inaccuracies in it.

There is one thing in particular that got me wondering about Luftwaffe bomber tactics. In the movie Heinkel He 111 medium bombers are used for low altitude air raids and close airsupport for Panzer Army Africa at the Battle of El Guettar. I'm guessing that this is not accurate?

Wouldn't the He 111 attack from higher altitude? And they wouldn't use their machine guns or 20mm cannon for ground targets right?
Wouldn't tactical bombers pound the defenses together with artillery before the actual attack, and Stukas or HS 129's support the advancing panzers? I'm not sure which aircraft was most common in the North African theatre.

I appreciate all replies!

[Ironmachine]

The film was shot almost completely in Spain, and the planes were provided by the Spanish Air Force. They did not have Stukas or HS 129's, but they did had CASA 2.111 airplanes, the Spanish version of the He-111. So of course availability of the planes dictated which model was used, not any intention of accurately portraying the war.

P.S. Still, at least they used planes that could pass for real German stuff. Look at what tanks they used...

[timotheus]

Haha that movie LOL.

The scene where the evil German Nazi dude kills his friend for having doubts.

Or the one where the tank runs over the poor German infantry a la computer game

Patton is a laughable movie, a joke really.

[Robert Rojas]

Greetings to both brother Timotheus and the community as a whole. Well Timotheus (or Tim if you so prefer), in light of your installment of Friday - September 19, 2008 - 4:52am, old Uncle Bob has reason to believe that you might be confusing the scene of German fratricide within that celluloid film epic entitled as THE BIG RED ONE. If my recollection serves, there was no particular scene within the film PATTON where one German serviceman specifically murders another German serviceman. However, old yours truly does vividly recall the scene within the film PATTON where an Afrika Korps infantryman is literally run over by an American maufactured M-48 Main Battle Tank posing as a Wehrmacht armored fighting vehicle during the Battle of El Guettar. Now you know. Well, that's my initial two cents or pfennigs worth on this theatric topic of interest - for now anyway. As always, I would like to bid you an especially copacetic day from sea to shining sea.

Best Regards,
Uncle Bob

[IvanSR]

Yeah, he must have confused it with some different movie. There definitely wasn't such scene.

[Michael Emrys]

Were they M48s? Somehow I had gotten it in my head that they used M46s in that movie.

Michael

[ProvostGuard]

Having read a biography on Patton, I thought the film did a pretty good job capturing the... "essence" of the general. Most of the inaccuracies people have noted have to do with the equipment, tanks, etc. used, which I find excusable for a biographical film made in 1970. The other major issue regards George C. Scott's voice and how it doesn't compare to Patton's high-pitched voice in real life. Having actually heard Patton's voice, I don't think Scott is that far off. Once again, I think it has more to do with capturing the "essence" of Patton.

God bless.
Jeff Chu

[IvanSR]

According to imdb:

The American and British tanks in the film are World War II vintage M-24 "Chaffee" light tanks. The German tanks, however, are portrayed by American-built postwar M-47 and M-48 tanks. Ironically, both the M-47 and M-48 types are called "Patton" tanks.

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0066206/trivia

[M55ikael]

Well, I found this statement to be true:
"Patton used very few actual World War II vintage tanks, except in archival newsreel footage. The film's tanks were supplied by the Spanish Army, which assisted the production. They included M41 Walker Bulldog, M46 Patton and M47 Patton tanks for the American side, M24 Chaffee tanks for the British, and M48 Patton tanks for the Germans. Of these machines, only the Chaffee had served in World War II, although not for the British. In reality, General Patton commanded a mixture of M-4 Shermans, M-5 Stuarts, and, very late in the war, M-26 Pershings. However, at the time of the filming, the only armed forces still to use the Sherman tanks were the Israeli Defense Forces (in highly modified postwar versions), the Yugoslav People's Army, and several Latin American nations.
In addition, 1950s M38 Jeeps can be seen, and 1960s M35 cargo trucks were used (for both American and German trucks)."

When it comes to capturing the essence of Patton I totally agree. However the actual war scenes are horribly unrealistic. Also the Battle of El Guetar was portrayed as an easy victory for Patton, when in fact his defense lines and artillery positions were overrun.

Can anybody answer my questions though? I guess they're pretty obvious, but I know the He 111 was used for many different roles, so I was wondering how the Luftwaffe would support their advances in Africa.

[Michael Emrys]

My guess would be the medium bombers like the 111 would be used behind the lines on such targets as ports and rail facilities, critical road junctions, supply dumps, and headquarters. Stukas and fighter-bombers would have been used for close support.

Since in the scene you mention occurs IIRC at a headquarters, it is not entirely implausible on those grounds. Whether it would be flying as low as depicted in the film is a bit iffy. It would depend on circumstances. But from the combat footage I've seen, I would guess that a bombing altitude of 300-600 for lightly defended operational targets meters would not be abnormal.

Michael

[Pax Melmacia]

Re that He-111 strafing scene, IIRC it showed Patton/Geo. C. Scott being bracketed by two parallel rows of bullet spatter. I can't figure out how a He-111's gun layout could manage that.

[Michael Emrys]

Re that He-111 strafing scene, IIRC it showed Patton/Geo. C. Scott being bracketed by two parallel rows of bullet spatter. I can't figure out how a He-111's gun layout could manage that.

It would have to have a really good special effects manager aboard.



Michael

[IvanSR]

Why was the slapping incident such a big scandal? He just slapped that coward, nothing more, nothing less. I think such scenes were pretty common under heavy fighting conditions.

[Michael Emrys]

Why was the slapping incident such a big scandal? He just slapped that coward, nothing more, nothing less. I think such scenes were pretty common under heavy fighting conditions.

For one thing, the men involved were not really cowards. One returned to his unit and served with it. IIRC the other was reassigned and served elsewhere. Secondly, the incidents did not occur under fire, but in an evacuation hospital. The setting was definitely inappropriate. Patton blew his cool due to (IMHO) suppressed anxieties over his own fears, against which he waged an exaggerated battle all his life.

All that said, it appears that the press did blow the whole incident out of proportion. Patton required a stern word from Eisenhower—which he got. But the publicity tied Eisenhower's hands and limited his freedom to use his own judgement in the matter.

Michael

[Pax Melmacia]

For one thing, the men involved were not really cowards.

I seem to recall that one of the men slapped had also been seriously ill at the time. Dysentery or malaria, I think.