"Unsere Mütter, unsere Väter"

Discussions on WW2 and pre-WW2 related movies, games, military art and other fiction.
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stupidmop
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Re: "Unsere Mütter, unsere Väter"

#31

Post by stupidmop » 26 Dec 2013, 19:36

I enjoyed the series immensely, if for no other reason than it was something that was fresh to me. As another poster echoed, growing up in the United States (or in his case Ireland), one sees the same tired theme of World War II: namely, the experience of the Western Allies and their "heroic" crusade to save Europe from Occupation (most British movies seems to think there was a large gap in the middle of the war, and most American movies seem to think the war didn't start until June '44! :P ).

Anyway, I enjoyed watching a German fictional perspective of war through the eyes of what may have been the experience of some normal Germans. I did, however, find it odd that none of the main characters were particularly antisemitic, yet the filmmakers felt the need to show antisemitism through the Polish partisans. I felt that was a little tactless to say the least.

Despite that I still enjoyed it. I thought the show was otherwise well written, the characters were gripping, and I was able to brush up on my ever fading German by watching it. :thumbsup:
"You cannot qualify war in harsher terms than I will. War is cruelty, and you cannot refine it." -- Gen. William Tecumseh Sherman

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Re: "Unsere Mütter, unsere Väter"

#32

Post by Marcus » 26 Dec 2013, 19:49

Just a reminder, discussions about possible white-washing of German crimes or make Poles in general look more guilty of antisemitic crimes than the Germans belong in the below thread, not this one.
Marcus Wendel wrote:I've moved the whole discussion about the war crimes and white-washing claims to a thread of its own so it has a chance to develop: "Unsere Mütter, unsere Väter" white wash history

/Marcus


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Re: "Unsere Mütter, unsere Väter" white wash history

#33

Post by Dachhase » 30 Jan 2014, 14:05

Herewith my promised analysis. I already tried to post this, but it disappeared into “Drafts” and I cannot retrieve it. So my next try.
This series was shown in Australia over the past three weeks, on the SBS station (one of the least watched of the five major stations, as it handles foreign material), at a very late hour, in a “non-ratings period”. Under the title “Generation War “ Apart from a few lines in TV programmes, it has attracted no notice at all, as far as I have seen.
It is a waste of time to keep abusing one another about politics and the guilt or otherwise of Germans, or the anti-Semitism or otherwise of the Poles. Nobody’s opinions are going to be changed. (I have made up my mind; don’t confuse me with facts.) So I am not entering into that field, only into the matter of factual errors and production blunders.
At the end of the first episode, I still reserved judgment on it. The five “friends” seemed to have no common point of contact to account for their friendship, just a conglomerate of stereotypes. It was beginning to look like a “tick-all-the-boxes” mega drama, trite, incoherent – but still, await developments.
Episode 2: This really started to go wrong when Viktor turned up, and it was almost past salvation after a few minutes with the partisans. First: Viktor was supposed to be travelling from Ravensbruck to Auschwitz. Ravensbruck was a women’s camp. There were a few men there for a time, but it is beginning to push plausibility. He was supposed to have been there from late 1941 until – I think – ca August 1943. He looked surprisingly well fed, and apparently had not been tattooed with a KZ number. And why the movement over that particular stretch of rail? Maybe not impossible, but certainly illogical.
The episode on the farm, with the farmer and his rifle: all weapons were confiscated by the German authorities, certainly all firearms. Even pocket knives. To have been found with a rifle would have meant death. If it had not been surrendered to the German authorities, it would have been requisitioned by the Polish partisans.
The episode where the partisans are discussing whether Viktor was Jewish or not. For goodness’ sake! Two minutes. “Hosen ‘runter.” (Take off your pants.) End of debate. But then, some of this episode and much of the third one would not have existed. The script writer and / or producer were either breathtakingly naïve, or else deceitful.
The partisans’ subterranean bunker: virtually impossible, certainly unusual. The ground in that area did not permit the construction of underground structures without substantial reinforcement. It looks as though it might have been an existing structure, but they were still there more than a year later. The partisans were not static; it was too much of a burden on the local population. In fact, most of them came together as a unit only for specific actions or training. Between times, the majority lived mostly at home, in the villages or cities, went about normal activities, worked at normal jobs, etc.
The bomb in the well: I forget whether this was in 2 or 3. It was unlikely that peasants would have destroyed their own village well in order to kill a few Germans. (Although in Russia it was not necessarily impossible that partisans from somewhere else might have done so.]
Episode 3: Partisans still in the same bunker, more than a year later. Still arguing about whether Viktor was Jewish. And wearing red-and-white armbands with a black AK. Somebody had been looking at too many photos of the Warsaw Uprising. The “forest men” and the “mountain men” seldom wore armbands, and even more seldom did they identify their affiliation. I have seen NO photo of any of them wearing armbands, although it probably happened sometimes.
The action against the train: such a train should have had more than one machine-gun post on the roof; they were not to prevent escapes but to protect against aerial attacks. The engine crew would probably have been Polish. Polish railwaymen manned Polish trains, even taking them right into Berlin. (And conducting a two-way trade in information.) They would have remained hidden behind the armour plates of the locomotive, and the partisans would not have molested them. The partisans would not have left the prisoners in the wagons without at least inspecting all the wagons to ensure that there were none of their own men in them. In fact, they would almost certainly have released all of the prisoners, Jewish or not, in order to create havoc in the area. (If such an incident happened, I would be interested to hear of it. It certainly was not what happened with one of the trains that my husband blew up.)
The final flight of the Germans: There had been no major snowfalls in what appears to have been the relevant area by 26 December 1944 (Identified and dated photos show this.) But it was well and truly snowing by the time the Russian push began in mid January. Was it too hard to provide even a little bit of artificial snow for the filming? I sat through most of this episode either in stunned disbelief at its naiveté, or else outright laughing. Not the reactions that were desired.
And the absolutely dreadful final scene. How did Wilhelm get back to Berlin? How did Charlotte get away from the Russians? Was Wilhelm wandering around, without a formal discharge certificate? How did any of them get back to Berlin? How did they make contact? Both the Stein apartment and Greta’s room survived the bombing and the fight for Berlin. It was just too glib. People were still trying to find family members in 1955.
To what extent is “poetic licence” or “dramatic licence” allowable? I feel that the writers and producers – or whatever – may have started out with good intentions, but they simply did not have a clue. Did they ask any Polish historian for help? They should have. Were they refused help? If so, that was regrettable. The film reminds me in some ways of Baz Luhrmann’s film, “Australia”. Tick-the-boxes. Trite, stereotypes, magnificent camera work, irresponsible disregard of historical facts. The less you know about the facts, the more you enjoy the ride.

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Re: "Unsere Mütter, unsere Väter"

#34

Post by Mid-way » 30 Jan 2014, 18:04

The three episodes have just been broadcast in Australia as "Generation War", in German with subtitles. I watched parts of the first episode and all of the third one. I wasn't terribly impressed, for the reasons given below, but acknowledge that the film may have a positive message for German viewers.

The film's main flaws were the attitudes of the five main characters, the ludicrous use of coincidences in the plot line and the simplistic Hollywood morality in the last episode.

The main characters have surprisingly 21st century attitudes for 20-year-old Germans in the late 1930s to early 1940s.

Example: Cheerily greeting their Jewish friend with "Shalom!" on a public street in Berlin. This seems a wilful disregard of PERSEC.

As other posters have pointed out, Germans born around 1920 had their entire secondary (and university) education under Nazi ideology. Those born after 1925 had had their entire education under the Nazi system. The four leading non-Jewish characters seem not to have noticed this at all.

Mind you, this is not the first historical drama where contemporary attitudes and values are projected onto characters in the past.

The blurb for the series in the Sydney Morning Herald TV Guide was
This blockbuster miniseries vividly depicts the lives of five young German friends forced to navigate the unconscionable moral compromises of life under Hitler in Berlin, 1941.
The vast majority of non-Jewish Germans in 1941 faced no such compromises. The two characters who are actually morally compromised during the course of the series are the two who die, but each in their own way makes a redemptive gesture before death. This is a very Hollywood morality - they were bad so they have to be killed, but they did something for others at the very end so we (and God) can forgive them.

This is artistic drama, certainly not historical record or insight, even if the physical appearance of places, people and events at that time is accurate. And that's fine. My country has not had, and hopefully never will have, a national experience as dark as that of Germany 1932-1945. So it is entirely understandable that the producers may wish to reassure current German viewers that there were Germans (and Russians) in WWII who struggled against monstrous circumstances to maintain the flickering flame of human decency, e.g. people like Sophie and Hans Scholl and the White Rose group at Munich University.

To conclude, the series shows the appearance of the time, even the mindset of most of Germany at the time, but its five main characters do not share that mindset.

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Re: "Unsere Mütter, unsere Väter" white wash history

#35

Post by wm » 30 Jan 2014, 20:52

The one scene which is totally unbelievable is where the partisan unit attacks a German train. They are doing it to get guns and it turns out to be full of concentration camp inmates. Then they say they smell, close them up and leave them in the cars even when the train is disabled. There is no historical record of anything like that. It's unimaginable.
Well, it's quite imaginable, and the correct tactics. Obviously it was a deep raid into German territory. From that point there was about a hundred kilometres to the German border, two nights to reach it.

Those prisoners should have been left in the box cars, otherwise their presence would alert the security forces in that area. Or even worse some of them would follow that partisan unit hoping to save themselves - slowing them down, and betraying their position.

And, it happened like that. In one case a partisan unit was forced to open fire on the following people killing most of them.

The prisoners would free themselves later. Those wooden box cars were easy to escape from inside, it was happening frequently - they were designed against external threats only.

But anyway as it was two days through densely populated by Germans area with no usable cover en route, not to mention the large river there, good luck - you are not going to make it.

Below, the place is in blue, Auschwitz - red. The red line - the main route between Auschwitz and Germany - the place was pointlessly chosen in a middle of railway nowhere.
unsere640.jpg
unsere640.jpg (305.17 KiB) Viewed 2432 times

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Re: "Unsere Mütter, unsere Väter"

#36

Post by Gamle Lode » 09 Apr 2014, 15:27

I don't go into detailed analysis here, but watching this was a strong experience. It put me into trousers of a ww2 German, and clearly there had been many other destinies I had preferred over these. "Biased" "whitewashing" "inaccurate" etc., still this was probably more of the realist side than many other productions there are.

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Re: "Unsere Mütter, unsere Väter"

#37

Post by Karelia » 09 Apr 2014, 16:27

After decades of most unrealistic, biased, falsifying and naive, but still popular films/series (mostly) from Hollywood it's a bit odd to demand absolute, documentary level accuracy on this particular serie, which was not intended as a history lesson in the first place.

Naturally I'd prefer as much realism as possible, but am also somewhat aware of the laws of drama telling.

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Re: "Unsere Mütter, unsere Väter"

#38

Post by seaburn » 09 Apr 2014, 17:04

Karelia wrote:After decades of most unrealistic, biased, falsifying and naive, but still popular films/series (mostly) from Hollywood it's a bit odd to demand absolute, documentary level accuracy on this particular serie, which was not intended as a history lesson in the first place.

Naturally I'd prefer as much realism as possible, but am also somewhat aware of the laws of drama telling.
I do agree, as previously posted, it was welcomed here by many on the basis that it was a fresh 'from the other side' perspective. There were grumbles on coincidental meetings of the characters but I found many things were to be applauded. I admired the producers/writers showing Wilhelm executing the Russian commissar, Wilhelm was a main character and we in the audience had warmed to him, to show him coldly killing a captured soldier was brutal but it was an honest reflection of what happened back then. I Also applaud the part where Viktor comes into the office post-war and comes face to face with Dorn who had sent so many to their deaths (including their joint girlfriend Greta), Viktor's disbelief at the injustice that the Allies were now putting these men back in positions of authority is heart breaking - that too was not a Hollywood ending but a realistic one.

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Re: "Unsere Mütter, unsere Väter"

#39

Post by Dortmund » 24 Apr 2014, 14:58

Just out of interest, have you seen that the BBC is showing the series starting this Saturday night (26 April) here in the U.K. The first episode is being shown and I think that the others are to be shown in the following weeks. They are calling it "Our Mothers, Our Fathers".
I will be setting recorder up for it and I will just what is is like.
David.

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Re: "Unsere Mütter, unsere Väter"

#40

Post by seaburn » 24 Apr 2014, 15:15

Dortmund wrote:Just out of interest, have you seen that the BBC is showing the series starting this Saturday night (26 April) here in the U.K. The first episode is being shown and I think that the others are to be shown in the following weeks. They are calling it "Our Mothers, Our Fathers".
I will be setting recorder up for it and I will just what is is like.
David.
Hopefully we haven't put too many spoilers in here to detract from your viewing pleasure ! 8O Its interesting that it's getting new titles in different countries, at least the BBC one is a translation of the original. I don't know why our's was called 'generation war', it did lead to some of us worrying that it would be dubbed into English, but thankfully it was sub-titled. Thanks for the 'heads up' on this one, it will be well worth watching again !

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Re: "Unsere Mütter, unsere Väter"

#41

Post by Karelia » 26 Apr 2014, 13:40

In Finland the series was called "the Generation of War" ("Sodan sukupolvi"). Haven't seen it yet but have it stored.

Maybe the name was altered because the series is not about "our" (=Finnish) mothers and fathers?

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Re: "Unsere Mütter, unsere Väter"

#42

Post by starofafrika » 26 Apr 2014, 14:06

I completely enjoyed this series, and couldn't stop watching once I started. Great casting, a wonderful story and it seemed about as accurate as you can get for a television mini-series. I particularly enjoyed how it portrayed the effects of war on the average person and how such conflict may push a person to act in ways that are incongruent or in conflict with principles that have generally guided their lives to that point. And how it can often reveal who is really strong and who isn't.
Far more enjoyable than anything else I've seen on television lately.

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Re: "Unsere Mütter, unsere Väter"

#43

Post by Piotr Kapuscinski » 19 May 2014, 03:02

There is no historical record of anything like that. It's unimaginable.
Well, "Generation War" is only a fictional movie.

Here is how things were happening in real history:

Very good documentary with English subtitles:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i2hCH5ANJBE

There are words which carry the presage of defeat. Defence is such a word. What is the result of an even victorious defence? The next attempt of imposing it to that weaker, defender. The attacker, despite temporary setback, feels the master of situation.

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Re: "Unsere Mütter, unsere Väter"

#44

Post by Dan W. » 29 May 2014, 03:56

Someone please update this thread with any information (provided its available) on obtaining this series here in the U.S. for those of us who have not seen it. Very much looking forward to watching it, only the soundtrack is currently available on iTunes and Amazon.

I am enjoying the reviews on this thread though, keep 'em coming.

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Re: "Unsere Mütter, unsere Väter"

#45

Post by seaburn » 29 May 2014, 11:15

Hi 'Dan.W.' I took a quick look on youtube but could only find snippets that were subtitled in English, but I'd be surprised if there wasn't a full version up there....The German version is fully up there. Here is the English subtitled trailer....Hopefully you will track down the full 3 episodes soon !

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8sFQJLy0_cg

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