Come and See (1985) Discussion

[tonyh]

I bought this a while ago and to be honest I was a little disapointed. Its really only an attrocity movie and it certainly could have been done better.

It presents a typical Soviet propaganda view of WWII and especially the partisan activity of WWII. The partisans took no prisoners, thats for sure. But we only see this at the end of the film and only when we're geared up after we see the German soldiers laughing and cheering :roll: while they burn people in a barn and rape the women. A really silly and somewhat innocent way of "getting the audience on side". Its hard not to be cynical about these type of movie manipulations.

The film is too long and boringly pretentious in many places. Unnecessarilly so. The bottom line is that it could have been done better and more effectivly without resorting to the silly propaganda. But then again, its a Russian film about WWII........so what do you expect?

Of course, only Germans commited attrocities in WWII and every one of them couln't wait to fry a Russian civvie.

Tony

[Lars EP]

I saw it back in -87 when it was released in Denmark.

I thought it was brillant, even outstanding. Horrifying, surreal, nightmarish.

Of course it only shows German astrocities. That is what the film is about. And anyway, the Soviets where amaturs in commiting war-crimes, compared with the Germans. The death-toll, if nothing else, speaks for itself. But also the number of destroyed towns, villages, farms, libraries, hospitals and museums shows that there was a world of difference.

The German high-command had from the beginning orders to treat the Russians as sub-humans. It was made clear to the German soldiers that they where free to do what ever they wanted. As the enemy was less than human, there was no reason to treat them as such.

The Soviets never gave such orders. Not that they didn't commit warcrimes. Everybody did, and does. And in a war so brutal as the Eastern front, they probably also comitted more astrocities than their Western Allied counterparts. But, never in such an systematic, fiendish and monstrous way as the Germans.

Regards --- Lars

[Toivo]

This might go a bit off topic but about Germans doing worst warcrimes... Heh, namely destroying cities - what about Dresden? Red Army destoryed in my homeland one ancient bordercity with artilleryfire (Narva, it still exists but none of old building now), they bombed non-military objects in capitol Tallinn and did large scale destruction in Taru, ancient city.

I think you take this either one-way or you have some emotional background for anger. But, I try to take this not subjectively. Everybody and their mother are making germans look monsters (not that they were any good, many of them it is), and have listed all their crimes and more, but what about japans, allies and soviets? Guess for allies and soviets works "you don't critizise winners"...
Just few thoughts on subject, nothing personal, nothing to take too hard.

Regards

[Lars EP]

I'm not taking it personal, and maybe we should continue a more relevant place.

As I said, the Russians probably comitted worse astrocities than most. They did not, however, systematicly exterminate 17 million German civilians. That is what the Germans did on the Eastern front.

Regards --- Lars

[Heinz Stohl]

"winners always make the storys" think about that. no doubt the russians were as brutal as the germans or even more so. evern before the war russian bulshiviks commited many atrocitys to there own people as well as german civilians liveing in and aroudn russia.

stalins secreat police did alot of this as well.

[Toivo]

Yes we could discuss this in other thread Lars.
As about systemathic murdering... that's what horrifies people most and makes wonder, because GULAG camps for exsample killed people quite randomly with hard work and starving. German camps just killed people off. And worst in both cases is killing own nation due ideology, not just POWs.
I just think that everyone who is/was responsible should get equally punched.

Regards

[luftschiff]

Of course it only shows German astrocities. That is what the film is about. And anyway, the Soviets where amaturs in commiting war-crimes, compared with the Germans. The death-toll, if nothing else, speaks for itself. But also the number of destroyed towns, villages, farms, libraries, hospitals and museums shows that there was a world of difference.

An outright lie. The Bolsheviks were probably the most insanely murderous government in history. They exterminated twice as many Russians as the Germans did, and unlike the Germans who killed during wartime, the bolsheviks murdered people in peacetime. Ukraine has literally hundreds of mass graves in it from Cheka and NKVD mass executions from before, after, and during the war.

The German high-command had from the beginning orders to treat the Russians as sub-humans. It was made clear to the German soldiers that they where free to do what ever they wanted. As the enemy was less than human, there was no reason to treat them as such.

So why did Russians and Ukrainians welcome the Germans as liberators? Why was there an entire Ukrainian SS Division? Why did hundreds of thousands of Russians serve in the Wehrmacht under Vlasov? Does treating Russians as subhumans mean bringing Russians food and medicine via the Red Cross and uncovering mass graves of people shot by the NKVD? Because that's what the Germans did when they invaded the USSR. My own family members have spoken of how, when the Germans occupied their small village, they were treated with respect, unlike the bolsheviks, who were utterly barbaric when they took the town over later.

The Soviets never gave such orders. Not that they didn't commit warcrimes. Everybody did, and does. And in a war so brutal as the Eastern front, they probably also comitted more astrocities than their Western Allied counterparts. But, never in such an systematic, fiendish and monstrous way as the Germans.

This is another lie. This is what bolshevik propagandist Ilya Ehrenburg ordered Soviet soldiers to do:

The Germans are not human beings. From now on the word German means to use the most terrible oath. From now on the word German strikes us to the quick. We shall not speak any more. We shall not get excited. We shall kill. If you have not killed at least one German a day, you have wasted that day… If you cannot kill your German with a bullet, kill him with your bayonet. If there is calm on your part of the front, or if you are waiting for the fighting, kill a German in the meantime. If you leave a German alive, the German will hang a Russian and rape a Russian woman. If you kill one German, kill another – there is nothing more amusing for us than a heap of German corpses. Do not count days, do not count kilometers. Count only the number of Germans killed by you. Kill the German – that is your grandmother's request. Kill the German – that is your child's prayer. Kill the German – that is your motherland's loud request. Do not miss. Do not let through. Kill.

https://justice4germans.files.wordpress ... =600&h=450

During and after the war the Soviets undertook the worst mass rape in human history: 2 million+ women systematically raped, which was encouraged by the Soviet higher-ups. By comparison, the Germans treated subjugated women with respect. The bolsheviks committed not only rapes but also executions of children, cutting babies from wombs, crucifying women on doorsteps, etc. Read up on what they did to civilians at places like Nemmersdorf. If the Germans felt that the bolsheviks were vicious subhumans then the bolsheviks ironically proved them right by their behavior.

I suggest you stop getting information from fictional communist propaganda films like "Come and See." German soldiers committed some crimes during WW2- all armies do- but they were nowhere near as vicious, systematic, and utterly psychotic as those of the bolsheviks.