Simple questions about the movie "Schindler's List"

[En Taro Tassadar!]

Are the events pictured in this movie accurate? Also, do you think Spielberg went too far by portraying the Germans (at the exception of Schindler and his wife of course) as emotionless killers?

[Beppo Schmidt]

Schindler's List was pretty accurate by Hollywood standards. I don't really have a problem with its portrayal of the Germans, because aside from Schindler and his wife, the only Germans in the film are the officers involved in the Final Solution like Göth and Höss and Mengele. Such people were pretty much emotionless killers.

[1812]

I think it was very accurate. I think that everyone should watch this movie at least once, no matter who you happen to be. I found it a bit disturbing watching the germans killing everyone in the ghetto while one guy was playing the piano. They werent portrayed as emotionless killers, they seemed to be enjoying it. That made me wonder why the average soldier did not have to stand trial for war crimes. They should have.

[En Taro Tassadar!]

I think it was very accurate. I think that everyone should watch this movie at least once, no matter who you happen to be. I found it a bit disturbing watching the germans killing everyone in the ghetto while one guy was playing the piano. They werent portrayed as emotionless killers, they seemed to be enjoying it. That made me wonder why the average soldier did not have to stand trial for war crimes. They should have.

What makes you think that particular scene happened in reality? According to this site, Goeth never shot inmates from his house's balcony because there was a hill standing between the camp and his house, instead, he climbed that hill overlooking the camp and shot the inmates from there. If this is true, don't you think it leaves room for other fabrications (such as the piano scene)? Also, just to make sure, are you suggesting every German squad cheerfully shot Jews while one of their men played the piano? Why should the average German soldier have stood trial? The reason why I asked how much of "Schindler's List" is accurate is because the latter is Spielberg's second WW2-related movie, the first one being "Saving Private Ryan" and in which Spielberg was obviously very biased towards the Americans, basically portraying the German troops as a bunch of savage-clumsy-looking-animals who enjoyed running into enemy fire, etc. something reminiscent of old Western Front movies starring John Wayne. So I was wondering if Spielberg left his bias at home this time, while making Schindler's List.

edit: doh, I thought SPR was made before Schindler's List

[Director]

Correct me if I'm wrong here, weren't the SS bad? I have have read countless book on the SS. The only division of the SS not to commit war crimes were the foriegn ones. Wiking etc.
What do you expect Spielberg to do? He's Jewish, the war was begun because of the hatred of the Jews? Jews have been persecuted for 2,000 years. Next you'll be saying the Pianist is false. I've read the book, the movie is a facsimile. But, even in that book, they have good Germans. I don't think Spielberg hates Germans at all. I mean his last name is of German descent! And his favourite film festival is th eBerlin one.
Schindler's list is about the murder of the Jews, whichin turn was carried out by the SS. But not all the SS were German though, were they. I'm not defending Spiellberg, I don't need to. His action are justified. Nazi's were monsters! Read that, NAZI'S were monsters. Not German as a whole!

[Eden Zhang]

his last name is of German descent!

And the first Jews to be rounded up and killed were the German Jews.

Just my $0.02.

[Orok]

I don't think Spielberg hates Germans at all. I mean his last name is of German descent! And his favourite film festival is th eBerlin one.

More accurately, his last name is Yiddish, which was the lingua franca of the Jewish people throughout central and eastern Europe. Yiddish is practically a dialect of High German (I am sure some Germans would deny it! ) and mutually intelligible with most High German dialects, although it is traditionally written in Hebrew letters, making it totally foreign to most German speakers.

Best Regards!

[Beppo Schmidt]

That made me wonder why the average soldier did not have to stand trial for war crimes. They should have.

Not all German soldiers committed war crimes, many were young men thrown into a situation greater than themselves the same as the Allies. Göth and his cronies destroying the Krakow Ghetto didn't represent the entire German Armed Forces, and they were not combat troops anyway. There are good and bad people on both sides, which I don't think is so hard to understand.

btw, some of the people in this thread are so blatantly anti-Semitic and racist against Germans that it's pathetic. people are bad because of what they do, not because they're German or Jewish, and everyone of a nationality or ethnic group isn't the same. just obvious facts some people can't understand. sorry for the angry tone, but I believe this needs addressed.

[Javier Acuña]

Correct me if I'm wrong here, weren't the SS bad? I have have read countless book on the SS. The only division of the SS not to commit war crimes were the foriegn ones. Wiking etc.
What do you expect Spielberg to do? He's Jewish, the war was begun because of the hatred of the Jews? Jews have been persecuted for 2,000 years. Next you'll be saying the Pianist is false. I've read the book, the movie is a facsimile. But, even in that book, they have good Germans. I don't think Spielberg hates Germans at all. I mean his last name is of German descent! And his favourite film festival is th eBerlin one.
Schindler's list is about the murder of the Jews, whichin turn was carried out by the SS. But not all the SS were German though, were they. I'm not defending Spiellberg, I don't need to. His action are justified. Nazi's were monsters! Read that, NAZI'S were monsters. Not German as a whole!

Only rear guard (specially the ones recovering from battle wounds) SS worked as guards in the concentration camps, the rest were "elite" army units fighting in the field. I don't think one can be so Manichaean to plainly say that they were "bad".
The Jews have been prosecuted for more than 2k years.

[Kunikov]

Only rear guard (specially the ones recovering from battle wounds) SS worked as guards in the concentration camps, the rest were "elite" army units fighting in the field. I don't think one can be so Manichaean to plainly say that they were "bad".

Then how do you explain the fact that the entire Totenkopf division was made up of concentration camp guards?

The Jews have been prosecuted for more than 2k years.

This makes it OK to kill and slaughter them by the millions?

[vogelbird]

What do you expect Spielberg to do? He's Jewish, the war was begun because of the hatred of the Jews? Jews have been persecuted for 2,000 years.


The second world war began because of Hitlers expansionistic policies; his desire for Lebensraum and was nothing to do with his presecution of the Jews. When the allies went to war with Germany, I think it is accurate to say that the Jews were tha last thing on their minds. Their plight only really seemed to gain so much attention as the concentration camps began to be overrun and then it all became very good propaganda. If you look into the Bible, you will see that the persecution of the Jews goes back a lot further than 2000 years.There were good and decent SS men just as there were murderous sadists. Such individuals you will find in any army. Individuals often perpetrated war crimes but again that did'nt mean the whole division were guilty anymore than the whole nation. War is cruel and probably brings out the best and worst in people. I am not defending what the SS collectively did, far from it. I am just trying to put into perspective what is so often overlooked when people generalize about this subject. I hope that this makes sense to everybody.
Regards Vogelbird

[Javier Acuña]

Only rear guard (specially the ones recovering from battle wounds) SS worked as guards in the concentration camps, the rest were "elite" army units fighting in the field. I don't think one can be so Manichaean to plainly say that they were "bad".

Then how do you explain the fact that the entire Totenkopf division was made up of concentration camp guards?

The Waffen SS Panzer Division Totenkopf was indeed formed of concentration camp guards and the officers of the SS-VT in 1939 when the war needs requested so. It's not like the Waffen SS soldiers had duties of both guarding and soldiering, it was a specific detachment of SS personal the one in charge of concentration camps, which is a minority in termns of numbers. Only when war broke out some soldiers were transfered from guarding to soldiering. Besides, it was only one division among all the Waffen SS structure.

The Jews have been prosecuted for more than 2k years.

This makes it OK to kill and slaughter them by the millions?

I never said so, so please stop putting words in my mouth.

In any case, this convresation is way off topic in the movies + games section

[Director]

En Taro Tassadar! wrote:

What makes you think that particular scene happened in reality? According to this site, Goeth never shot inmates from his house's balcony because there was a hill standing between the camp and his house, instead, he climbed that hill overlooking the camp and shot the inmates from there.

If you watch the Schindler's list DVD that was released about a month ago, you'll see a documentary called 'Voices from the list'.
It's a fantastic watch that has all the main Jewish characters from the film telling it the way they lived it. Half way through, some of the former inmates speak of how Goeth would shoot people randomly in the camp. They go on to say how they could tell if he was in a murderous mood or not by the cap he was wearing. A crusher cap meant a murdering rampage and a peaked cap meant he wouldn't be as bad. (But that isn't saying he wouldn't kill anyone, that explains the scene where he shoots his help for not cleaning the bath properly.)

In my opinion, from what I've read and seen, the only scene that isn't fact based is at the end, when Schindler breaks down. Most film-goers and critics alike don't like this scene. It reeks of fakeness, and in my opinion is the worst part. But a Spielberg movie wouldn't be a Spielberg movie without schmaltz!

Colonel SteelFist wrote:

Maybe, but not for the rest of the series. Spielberg wasn't very accurate in his homework over there

I'm no expert on German WWII history or war history in general (I'm rather ignorant really) but I've heard from veterans and experts alike that it is extremely accurate. Spielberg was an co-excutive producer along with Tom Hanks on the series, that being said he had more power than anyone. (He would no matter what role he took.) But I think he was not around for all pre-production,production and post. So you can't blame him.
If you blame Spielberg (sorry blame is a little too strong) you'd better mention Stephen Ambrose and Capt. Dale Dye. This is thier aspect of production, not Spielberg.

vogelbird wrote:

The second world war began because of Hitlers expansionistic policies; his desire for Lebensraum and was nothing to do with his presecution of the Jews.

What a load of crap, Hitler wanted to kill the Jews all along. It's the basis of the Nazi party. Have you read Mein Kampf and tried to take in al the s**t he peddles.

[vogelbird]

Okay Director, what history books have you been reading, besides Mein Kampf? What source can you quote that states that Hitler went to war in order to exterminate the Jews? And likewise that the allies took him on in order to defend the Jewish race? Admittedly he used some very fiery language in Mein Kampf but you have to admit that his initial steps in persecuting the Jews was not that of the later developed "Final Solution". He would much rather not have the Jews within Germany and later the occupied lands of the Reich, hence earlier moves to force them out of German daily life and Germany itself. Many top nazis themselves in the years prior to WWII never invisaged the scale and depths to which Hitler was to have them stoop. Remember Hitler said in the Reichstag that if a war in europe WAS to break out then it would result in the annihlation of the jewish race in europe, not that it was already being carried out. On the other hand look at Hitlers early territorial demands, Sudetenland, Czachoslovakia, the Anscluss, the invasion of Poland etc, thats why the allies went to war with him not because of his persecution of the Jews.
Vogelbird

[maxxx]

i just heard about the 1900 (!) pictures of tortures in iraq handed over to the congress today.
why not bring all 150000 american soldiers in iraq to trial at once?
As silly as bringing all 10.000000 plus ordinary german soldiers to trial.

but i think, most of you dont get one point. It is a movie, not a documentary. I think, spielberg has tried to be honest. As honest as somebody can be, who went through the hollywood school. That means, he is used to playing with the viewers emotions. you can do this for enlightment or manipulation, it will always be hollywood, not talking facts, but emotions. (Think of the use of the red colour)

I think it is absolute of no interest if the kz commander shot from his window or had to go a few meters on a hill to shoot at the inmates. He shot them! That is the point. And nobody ever denied this.

I dont think he is not unfair to the germans in general.
Outside the camp there are interesting and not just "bad" germans (take the officer in prison)

I think the only pathetic piece is the sequence in the end with the survivers and the actors. That is Hollywood at its worst. But even here i think i see the point he wanted to make,but he made it the kitschy hollywoodian way...

this movie is made for an american audience and americas traditions of watching movies.
the film would be very different if an european director had made it, but it would not have reached so many people who were never aware of this sad history.