Weimar and proportional representation

Discussions on every day life in the Weimar Republic, pre-anschluss Austria, Third Reich and the occupied territories. Hosted by Vikki.
rob
Member
Posts: 94
Joined: 01 Apr 2002, 06:00
Location: california,usa

Weimar and proportional representation

#1

Post by rob » 09 Oct 2002, 00:52

Someone asked a question about Weimar's election system. I don't know all of the specifics, but Weimar used an extreme form of proportional reprsentation. Each party nominated a slate of candidates and won a share of seats proportional to their share of votes. Basically, even tiny parties could win seats. I believe the minimum required was enough votes equivalent to the fractional percent of the reichstag being elected, so if there were 600 members, about 1/600th of the vote would win one seat. the Nazis in the early thirties took much of their votes from previous supporters of the small non-leftist parties. I think proportional representation is a good idea and its worked in many countries, but Weimar had so many problems going in that I think it was doomed from the start, though certainly a much more moderate leadership could have emerged than Hitler and the Nazis.

Gwynn Compton
Member
Posts: 2840
Joined: 10 Mar 2002, 23:46
Location: United Kingdom

#2

Post by Gwynn Compton » 09 Oct 2002, 10:15

It was not helped either by the fact that so many of the main political parties were working towards its destruction, or only paid it lip service.

Gwynn


viriato
Member
Posts: 717
Joined: 21 Apr 2002, 14:23
Location: Porto,Portugal

#3

Post by viriato » 09 Oct 2002, 20:01

Rob wrote:
I believe the minimum required was enough votes equivalent to the fractional percent of the reichstag being elected, so if there were 600 members, about 1/600th of the vote would win one seat.
I think Germany was divided in 35 electoral districts and proportional represantation was calculated inside each one and not in Germany as a whole.

rob
Member
Posts: 94
Joined: 01 Apr 2002, 06:00
Location: california,usa

#4

Post by rob » 10 Oct 2002, 17:30

Viriato,
The division into districts is correct, but I believe that if a party didn't quite win enough votes to win a seat in anyone of the 35 districts they were compensated (all of their wasted votes were pooled together or something like that). Not sure on this, but I know tiny parties were getting in with just a few seat.

viriato
Member
Posts: 717
Joined: 21 Apr 2002, 14:23
Location: Porto,Portugal

#5

Post by viriato » 10 Oct 2002, 20:25

Rob see this site:

http://www.gonschior.de


and click "wahlergebnisse". It seems to me that the calculus is made within each district. However I might be wrong. Still the option of a national calculus seems strange. For instance in the elections of 1933 the DVP got 1,10% of the votes but only got 2 seats. If there was a national proportionality it would have had some 7 deputies (1,10%*600+). What do you think?

rob
Member
Posts: 94
Joined: 01 Apr 2002, 06:00
Location: california,usa

#6

Post by rob » 11 Oct 2002, 17:38

Viriato,
Good point and great site. However, just to confuse matters, if you look at the vote/seat ratio of the German State Party and the Christian Social Peoples Party they got .85% and 5 seats, and .98% and 4 seats. Based on the provinces it looks like they ran candidates everywhere and doesnt look like they ran strong enough anywhere to win a proportional share from the 35 districts, so I still wonder how they got close to their fair share of seats, and of course the Peoples Party (DVP) got slightly more votes than either or those parties and less seats. Don't know what to make of this.

viriato
Member
Posts: 717
Joined: 21 Apr 2002, 14:23
Location: Porto,Portugal

#7

Post by viriato » 12 Oct 2002, 15:55

Rob, it seems that we cannot arrive at any definitive conclusion. :( You made a good point about DStP and CsVD. The only explanation I could have is that these parties had their votes concentrated in a few electoral districts or they chalenged elections in only a few electoral districts or they had made coalitons with other parties, but as you have already stated this looks somewhat improbable... By the way have you noticed that the DStP had 0.95% of the votes in 1932 (II) and 0.85% of the votes in 1933 but increased the number of deputies from 2 to 5 from 1932 (II) to 1933? Weird isn't it?

And what about this:
Wahlsystem (ab 1920)

eine Stimme je WählerIn; 35 Wahlkreise; automatische Methode; auf je 60.000 Stimmen ein Sitz; Reststimmen werden über Landeslisten verrechnet; auf einen Rest von mehr als 30.000 Stimmen entfällt ein weiterer Sitz.
What "reststimmen"? Those from each "Wahlkreise"?

I hope someone else jumps in this thread and may help us...

rob
Member
Posts: 94
Joined: 01 Apr 2002, 06:00
Location: california,usa

#8

Post by rob » 12 Oct 2002, 19:02

Viriato,
I think you got our answer , reststimme are votes that were not used to elect anyone, wasted in other words, at the 35 districts level. It says these are used at the land level. I believe this means provincial level, and each 30000 wasted votes would elect one member. For some small provinces like Thuringia or Brunswick this wouldn't help these small parties, but in the case of Prussia, which represented about 60% of the German voters there would be huge amounts of wasted votes being recalculated at the land level. I bet most of the small parties won their compensatory seats from Prussia. Thats pretty much what the German says.

viriato
Member
Posts: 717
Joined: 21 Apr 2002, 14:23
Location: Porto,Portugal

#9

Post by viriato » 13 Oct 2002, 14:35

Rob,
This time I have to disagree with you. The "Wahlkreise" were not coincidental to "Land" in most cases. Prussia for instance was divided in 22 "Wahlkreise" some of them including other (minor) "Land" - Anhalt, Braunschweig, Bremen, Lippe, Lübeck, Oldenburg, etc. The same with Bavaria and Saxonia. See a map of the "Wahlkreise" in another intersting site:

weimarer-wahlen.de

Gwynn Compton
Member
Posts: 2840
Joined: 10 Mar 2002, 23:46
Location: United Kingdom

#10

Post by Gwynn Compton » 14 Oct 2002, 04:32

Does anyone have any documents relating to the Weimar electorial system which might help us?

Gwynn

Dobrin
Member
Posts: 13
Joined: 07 Oct 2002, 21:20
Location: Bulgaria, Sofia

proportional system

#11

Post by Dobrin » 14 Oct 2002, 19:11

here you are, Gwynn:
http://www.documentArchiv.de/wr/1920/re ... _1920.html
or just
http://www.documentarchiv.de/in.html
and follow the links to Weimarer Republik and Reichswahlgesetz (27.04.1920)

Hope it will be useful

Rob you were right about this - there was compensation for all wasted votes (die Reststimme), it was provided by Art. 16 and 18 of the Reichswahlgesetz

Dobri

viriato
Member
Posts: 717
Joined: 21 Apr 2002, 14:23
Location: Porto,Portugal

#12

Post by viriato » 14 Oct 2002, 21:21

Thanks for the links Dobrin. However I still have doubts at how could this have happened:

1-
By the way have you noticed that the DStP had 0.95% of the votes in 1932 (II) and 0.85% of the votes in 1933 but increased the number of deputies from 2 to 5 from 1932 (II) to 1933?
2-
For instance in the elections of 1933 the DVP got 1,10% of the votes but only got 2 seats. If there was a national proportionality it would have had some 7 deputies (1,10%*600+).

Gwynn Compton
Member
Posts: 2840
Joined: 10 Mar 2002, 23:46
Location: United Kingdom

#13

Post by Gwynn Compton » 15 Oct 2002, 00:04

Can you end up with "hang over" deputies in a solely Proportional system? I'm aware you can in a Mixed Proportional System such as Germany and New Zealander have now, but what about the Weimar system?

Gwynn

Dobrin
Member
Posts: 13
Joined: 07 Oct 2002, 21:20
Location: Bulgaria, Sofia

Wahlsystem

#14

Post by Dobrin » 15 Oct 2002, 22:33

Why did DStP win more seats in March 1933 than in November 1932, though it lost votes?
As a matter of fact it lost just about 2 000. I think the State party had 3 more mandates in 1933, because it collected more Reststimme from the various Wahlkreise. These were added to a separate Reich's list of candidats. I'm quoting das Reichswahlgesetz, §32:
"Ein Rest von mehr als 30.000 Stimmen wird vollen 60.000 gleichgeachtet."
30 000 were taken as 60 000, when you checked the results on a Reich level.
About the second question (DVP's results in 1933) - this is a mistery to me. Right - 60 000 votes meant 1 deputy; DVP won 430 000 and promoted just 2 candidates to the Reichstag; where did the rest 310 000 votes go? A possible explanation could be that this last number was so dispersed in the different election districts that it could not make 30 000 in a separate district in order to be added to the Reichswahlliste.

Dédé
New member
Posts: 1
Joined: 04 Dec 2002, 18:04
Location: Hildesheim (Germany)
Contact:

#15

Post by Dédé » 10 Dec 2002, 10:09

Hello,

I want to try to calm the confusions:
Germany was divided into 35 constituencies. Every party gained one seat per 60,000 votes in a constituency (about 5 to 12 % of the votes).
One to three constituencies formed a "Wahlkreisverband" (union of constituencies). The rests of the votes where added in these Wahlkreisverbände and - if a party accumulated more than 60,000 and had a rest greater than 30,000 in one of the combined constituencies - the party gained another seat in the constituency with the greatest rest.
The rests that weren't used in the Wahlkreisverbände were accumulated on Reich level and the parties gained one seat per 60,000 votes and for a rest greater than 30,000 another seat, but not more seats as they gained on constituencies' level.
In addition - and that explains the questions about State party and People's party in 1932 and 1933 - the parties were allowed to combine their tickets. So, it was possible to avoid the restriction on Reich level.
The State party e.g. had a standalone ticket in the 1932 Reichstag elections (in fact they were combined with several tickets but those won less than 5,000 votes) and as they won only 2 resp 1 seat on constituencies' level, they had no more than 4 resp 2 seats at all. In 1933, they joined the Social democratic ticket and as the Social democrats won a lot more of seats in the constituencies as they gained on Reich level so that the remaining could be used for the State party which won no ticket on constituencies' level.
The People's party joined the ticket of the German-national people's party in the 1932 elections which had the same effect as for the State party in 1933, but had a combined ticket with other small civic parties in 1933. As those 4 parties won 4 seats on constituencies' level (thereof one for the People's party), they gained overall 8 seats whereby every party gained one seat on Reich level for one seat on constituencies' level so that the People's party had only 2 seats.
I hope I was able to explain this in English.

Post Reply

Return to “Life in the Third Reich & Weimar Republic”