Why did Germany lose WW1?

Discussions on all aspects of the First World War not covered in the other sections. Hosted by Terry Duncan.
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Puma11
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Re: Why did Germany lost WW1?

#31

Post by Puma11 » 11 Mar 2010, 19:22

Optiow wrote:
Puma11 wrote:The American armed forces of 1917 were in no fit state to fight a modern war to say that their entry caused Germanys surrender has to be taken with a pince of salt. German civilians were suffering from the British blockade, her allies were surrendering one after the other and her armed forces were widely turning to reletively new concept of communism. A large percentage of the German population had lost faith in the war and their leadership.
Even if they were not in a fit state, they were new and fresh, itching for a fight (unlike the Germans, who were also in an unfit state to continue with war). This was one of the main factors of why the Germans lost.
Agreed they were fresh and eager to fight, but they were raw and untrained in trench warfare as the casualty figures to the second battle of the Marne show. The greatest thing America brought with it was the potential of all it's resources to the fight, it would be difficult to imagine American public opinion putting up with the massive casuality figures endured by the Allies had they entered the war earlier.

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Re: Why did Germany lost WW1?

#32

Post by glenn239 » 11 Mar 2010, 19:31

The blockades success was not over night and I've yet to find any evidence that American ships participated in it
It was not American ships that mattered, but American willingness to allow Britain to really tighten the screws after April 1917. The US and Britain were drifting towards open confrontation at sea until the US DOW settled the matter. No US DOW, the blockade fails. And if the blockade fails, then it becomes difficult to see how the Entente can win the war.


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Puma11
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Re: Why did Germany lost WW1?

#33

Post by Puma11 » 12 Mar 2010, 00:31

The chances of Britian and America going to war in 1917 were as about as unlikely as a woman understanding the "offside rule!" (only a joke please don't take any offence lol). Yes tensions were high due to the Allies boarding neutral ship and taking their cargo, but the war had turned into a war of attrition and to claim the war was won by one of the last nations to join it (no matter what potential they brought) is ridiculous. I do not deny America joining the war was one of the last straws but a whole lot more had gone towards the Ententes final victory before Americas poorly equiped expeditionary force set foot in Europe.

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Re: Why did Germany lost WW1?

#34

Post by Terry Duncan » 12 Mar 2010, 04:02

It was not American ships that mattered, but American willingness to allow Britain to really tighten the screws after April 1917.
The US definition of what was 'contraband of war' was certainly a lot stricter after the US became involved, perviously it had been argued many items should be allowed to be shipped without interdiction, including food etc, whilst once the US was actively involved the list became very nearly universal contraband.
The US and Britain were drifting towards open confrontation at sea until the US DOW settled the matter.
The US were not happy about cargo being seized, though they cared less when they were paid for by the Entente governments who took the cargo as their own imports. They were far less happy about their ships being sunk and their citizens being killed - even when travelling on a hostile nations ships - let alone the German foreign office trying to cause other nations to attack the US. There was certainly no real chance of the US declaring war on the Entente or Britain alone in 1917 or any other year of the war even if relationes were not perfect.
No US DOW, the blockade fails. And if the blockade fails, then it becomes difficult to see how the Entente can win the war.
The blockade managed to have its worst effect on food supplies in Germany during the winter of 1916-17 when the US was not involved, and it certainly was not about to fail if the US did not join in in 1917. Maintaining the blockade was far easier than getting the convoy system running - and needed less ships - and this could have been badly effected by no US entry, but then again introducing rationing could have reduced problems to a minimum anyhow, whilst taking ships off of the idiotic 'active patrolling' - reintroduced by Churchill in 1939 to disasterous effect then too - would have freed enough ships to make convoys viable from the start.

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Re: Why did Germany lost WW1?

#35

Post by Attrition » 12 Mar 2010, 10:52

Avner Offer claims that there was also serious hunger in the middle of 1918. In his view the Turnip Winter and the serious hunger of 1918 were exceptional and that the main effect of the blockade as regards food supplies was in the general shortage, which meant that people who were working long hours had to go looking for food and that city dwellers began to routinely visit the country looking for informal soures of food from Herr Farmer Palmer, whether he liked it or not. ('The First World War: An Agrarian Interpretation'). He goes into much detail on how quickly the British were able to increase food supplies from Britain to compensate for shipping losses and how casually the Germans calculated the effect of indiscriminate sinkings. Clearly it was a case of the player with the weaker hand being ready to take greater risks. This one certainly came back to haunt them.

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Re: Why did Germany lost WW1?

#36

Post by glenn239 » 12 Mar 2010, 19:25

The chances of Britian and America going to war in 1917 were as about as unlikely as a woman understanding the "offside rule!
No one said they were going to war. They were heading for a political showdown over the blockade and the impending credit crisis in American markets. If that fallout happens, then the blockade never reaches its zenith and it becomes difficult to see how the Entente wa s going to win the war.
Yes tensions were high due to the Allies boarding neutral ship and taking their cargo, but the war had turned into a war of attrition and to claim the war was won by one of the last nations to join it (no matter what potential they brought) is ridiculous.
The US didn’t win the war for the Entente, but without them the Entente may very well have lost it.

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Re: Why did Germany lost WW1?

#37

Post by dreamphoto » 04 Apr 2010, 22:32

I agree with other reason, but you shall not forget Salonika front.
Main reason for end of war in 1918 (rather than 1919-20) is there. Bulgarian force is capitulate, and way to Turkey is cut of by Serbian troops. German in short time loose two very important allies, soon A.H. forces was also out of war.

Regards.

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Re: Why did Germany lost WW1?

#38

Post by Optiow » 07 Apr 2010, 00:24

Everyone was tired of war. The people had lost faith, and so had the soldiers. The navy mutinied in 1918 because of it. The German people had been under blockade from the British for years, and they were running short of substitute material.

The Americans had also joined into the war, and were making a difference. The Germans had tried to win before the Americans become too involved, but their Spring Offensive lost momentum and failed. Therefore more Americans would eventually come, and fresh troops would mean defeat. Germany had used its last dregs of manpower, and there was literally nothing left. Their Allies were failing, their people were tired, and there was no point in fighting any longer.

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Re: Why did Germany lost WW1?

#39

Post by The_Enigma » 07 Apr 2010, 03:25

While i am reaching the point in uni where i shall now be covering this section, from tibbets i have read there and other bits and bobs around the place i think the conclusion may not be in the years of 1915-18 but actually in 1914. Short term causes for the war seem to look towards the inflexable German war plans and Russian mobilisation but one suspects that it is here we MAY see the reason for why the war was lost. So not a question of why the war was lost in 1918 but why was the war dragged out so long after the conclusion had already been reached.

Studies have shown that the German war plans were inflexible and allowed little political leaway, once they were set in motion that was it; it was all or nothing due to timetables and deadlines to defeat France and strike before Russia was ready. Therefore why did Germany loose the First World War; due to a flawed strategy to deal with France and Russia, little political leaway in their war plans, and Russia mobilising first also affecting her war plans.

Just a stab in the dark at the momment but I find it rather intresting to see how my studies pan out and if they compare any to this hypothesis.

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Re: Why did Germany lost WW1?

#40

Post by Attrition » 07 Apr 2010, 14:41

The 'short war-illusion' is a bit of a post war fabrication, a "'short war-illusion' illusion". The long war of exhaustion was a certainty if the contenders couldn't force a quick victory and Germany's chances were slim if this took place. The Germans did make some arrangements in case they couldn't win quickly though so the 'war in 1914 with a coda 1915-1918' wasn't entirely unexpected or improvised. Strachan has some comments about German preparations around page 1020 in 'To Arms'.

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Re: Why did Germany lost WW1?

#41

Post by The_Enigma » 07 Apr 2010, 14:52

I dont think i have so far seen anything that suggested the Germans believed they could knock both France and Russia out within a few months, France yes but not for the latter.

I would suggest that it was not an illusion among the population there does seem to be some evidence suggesting they did believe it would be a short war plus there is the fact that practically all previous wars in the prior few decades had only lasted a few months (the impression am given of the very few that lasted over a year is that they were primarily on and off again conflicts ala the Hundred Years War - if i am not mistaken).

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Re: Why did Germany lost WW1?

#42

Post by Optiow » 10 Apr 2010, 01:24

Puma11 wrote:
Optiow wrote:
Puma11 wrote:The American armed forces of 1917 were in no fit state to fight a modern war to say that their entry caused Germanys surrender has to be taken with a pince of salt. German civilians were suffering from the British blockade, her allies were surrendering one after the other and her armed forces were widely turning to reletively new concept of communism. A large percentage of the German population had lost faith in the war and their leadership.
Even if they were not in a fit state, they were new and fresh, itching for a fight (unlike the Germans, who were also in an unfit state to continue with war). This was one of the main factors of why the Germans lost.
Agreed they were fresh and eager to fight, but they were raw and untrained in trench warfare as the casualty figures to the second battle of the Marne show. The greatest thing America brought with it was the potential of all it's resources to the fight, it would be difficult to imagine American public opinion putting up with the massive casuality figures endured by the Allies had they entered the war earlier.
Yes they were raw and green troops, but they would have learned in time. After the Spring Offensive Germany did not have any offensive potential, and could not replace their losses. The Allies could not replace their losses with American troops.

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Re: Why did Germany lost WW1?

#43

Post by The_Enigma » 10 Apr 2010, 12:43

But they did have their empire and other armies to call upon; one could suggest the forces from the Middle East could be redeployed following the closure of that campaign in late 1918 (iirc troops were already being redeployed from there to reinforce the battered units in France during the German offensive) and there is always the possability of raising additional troops from the Empire. But there just thoughts.

As for the Americans, i have not read much about their involvement. One would have assumed ocnsidering the British and French at been at it for years the Americans would have been able to learn from them/read their field manuals/study the battles fought to train their men in the latest techiniques?

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Re: Why did Germany lost WW1?

#44

Post by Keir » 11 Apr 2010, 12:34

I think too that the Germans were victims of their own military success. Knocking out Russia requiring the vast demands of manpower to occupy, resources to rebuild and transform and determination to hold was politically taxing, especially for the ruling SPD which saw the dismemberment of the first realised Soviet state as a betrayal of their own principles. Seeing what the Germans demanded of Russia at Brest-Litovsk clearly showed the allies what they were dealing with, and how Germany would deal with them, no doubt by annexing Belgium and much of NE France. The reparations and land demanded by the Germans would probably have exceeded those later to be demanded at Versailles. The success too in overrunning British trenches to see how the other half lived, and indeed overrunning towns and taking advantage of the shops brimming with food and alcohol did little to focus the troops. And as for focus, Ludendorff had none- charging through the soft-belly of France until his men were exhausted and miles away from any legitimate target.

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Re: Why did Germany lost WW1?

#45

Post by Okyzm » 11 Apr 2010, 16:28

Find a table of population and GDP of involved countries and then compare Central Powers to Entente.

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