8th army heavy and foot artillery in summer of '14
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8th army heavy and foot artillery in summer of '14
Hello, I'm interested in composition of the foot and attached fortress artillery units of the 8th German army after the mobilization in 1914. So far I have collected the information from Der Weltkrieg 1914-1918:
I/1, II/ Res. 15, I/11, I/Res. 1, II/5, half II/2.G.Res ( 2 10 cm batteries ), I/Res. 4, half II/2.G.Res ( 2 10 cm batteries ), half II/Res. 17, half I/Res. 17, three-quarters I/Res. 11, 4/Res. 15, 1/Res. 17 , half II/Res. 1, 1 battery 10 cm of II/Res. 4, 1. Garde Reserve regiment, Res. 1, Res.4 ( without I/4. and units attached to main reserve of Konigsberg ), 6 battalions and 8 batteries of landwehr, landsturm and ersatz, 6 batteries from Boyen .
So exactly how much guns and of what sort these units had? So far I only can count on those 5 10 cm cannon batteries, although I have no idea what model where those canons.
I/1, II/ Res. 15, I/11, I/Res. 1, II/5, half II/2.G.Res ( 2 10 cm batteries ), I/Res. 4, half II/2.G.Res ( 2 10 cm batteries ), half II/Res. 17, half I/Res. 17, three-quarters I/Res. 11, 4/Res. 15, 1/Res. 17 , half II/Res. 1, 1 battery 10 cm of II/Res. 4, 1. Garde Reserve regiment, Res. 1, Res.4 ( without I/4. and units attached to main reserve of Konigsberg ), 6 battalions and 8 batteries of landwehr, landsturm and ersatz, 6 batteries from Boyen .
So exactly how much guns and of what sort these units had? So far I only can count on those 5 10 cm cannon batteries, although I have no idea what model where those canons.
Re: 8th army heavy and foot artillery in summer of '14
According to the table given in the appendix of Franz Nikolaus Kaiser "Das Ehrenbuch der Deutschen Schweren Artillerie", Berlin 1931, vol. 1:
I/1, 4 batteries of schwere Feldhaubitze 02
II/ Res. 15, 4 batteries of schwere Feldhaubitze 02
I/11, 4 batteries of schwere Feldhaubitze 02
I/Res. 1, 4 batteries of schwere Feldhaubitze 02
II/5, 4 batteries of schwere Feldhaubitze 02
half II/2.G.Res ( 2 10 cm batteries ), 10cm Kanone 04
I/Res. 4, 4 batteries of schwere Feldhaubitze 02
half II/2.G.Res ( 2 10 cm batteries ), 4 batteries of schwere Feldhaubitze 02
half II/Res. 17, 2 batteries of schwere Feldhaubitze 02
half I/Res. 17, 2 batteries of schwere Feldhaubitze 02
three-quarters I/Res. 11, 3 batteries of schwere Feldhaubitze 02
4/Res. 15, 4 batteries 10 cm Kanone 04
1/Res. 17 , 4 batteries of schwere Feldhaubitze 02
half II/Res. 1, 2 batteries 10cm Kanone 04
1 battery 10 cm of II/Res. 4, ?? w(as equipped w/ sFH 02 according to the Ehrenbuch)
1. Garde Reserve regiment, (I. Bat: s.FH 02, II: 10cm K 04)
Res. 1, (I. Bat: s.FH 02, II: 10cm K 04)
Res. 4 ( without I/4. and units attached to main reserve of Konigsberg ), (I & II: s.FH 02)
6 battalions and
8 batteries of landwehr, landsturm and ersatz,
6 batteries from Boyen .
all Landwehr units had s.FH 96
Landsturm battalions and several fortress units were formed without guns!
All batteries should have had 4 guns.
I/1, 4 batteries of schwere Feldhaubitze 02
II/ Res. 15, 4 batteries of schwere Feldhaubitze 02
I/11, 4 batteries of schwere Feldhaubitze 02
I/Res. 1, 4 batteries of schwere Feldhaubitze 02
II/5, 4 batteries of schwere Feldhaubitze 02
half II/2.G.Res ( 2 10 cm batteries ), 10cm Kanone 04
I/Res. 4, 4 batteries of schwere Feldhaubitze 02
half II/2.G.Res ( 2 10 cm batteries ), 4 batteries of schwere Feldhaubitze 02
half II/Res. 17, 2 batteries of schwere Feldhaubitze 02
half I/Res. 17, 2 batteries of schwere Feldhaubitze 02
three-quarters I/Res. 11, 3 batteries of schwere Feldhaubitze 02
4/Res. 15, 4 batteries 10 cm Kanone 04
1/Res. 17 , 4 batteries of schwere Feldhaubitze 02
half II/Res. 1, 2 batteries 10cm Kanone 04
1 battery 10 cm of II/Res. 4, ?? w(as equipped w/ sFH 02 according to the Ehrenbuch)
1. Garde Reserve regiment, (I. Bat: s.FH 02, II: 10cm K 04)
Res. 1, (I. Bat: s.FH 02, II: 10cm K 04)
Res. 4 ( without I/4. and units attached to main reserve of Konigsberg ), (I & II: s.FH 02)
6 battalions and
8 batteries of landwehr, landsturm and ersatz,
6 batteries from Boyen .
all Landwehr units had s.FH 96
Landsturm battalions and several fortress units were formed without guns!
All batteries should have had 4 guns.
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Re: 8th army heavy and foot artillery in summer of '14
Thanks for the reply, so essentially all batteries were equipped with either sFH O2 or 10 cm cannons? What about heavier calibers, were they available in Ost at that point ? Also I have a question concerning the work you mentioned, does ti have some data about the exact numbers of heavy guns of the 8th army?
Re: 8th army heavy and foot artillery in summer of '14
As I said: all active and reserve batteries were equipped with Kanone 04 and Feldhaubitze 02. The Landwehr units had the older Feldhaubitze 96.
The Ehrenbuch is basically just a compilation of vignettes about the heavy artillery in combat (similar Ehrenbücher were written for the guards, Jäger, etc.). It does however contains a big table showing all heavy artillery units (designation, equipment, commanding officer, etc.) at mobilization and at armistice.
In the various texts about the fighting in East Prussia it is hinted that some Landsturm units (1./Ldst. Batl. XIX.AK for example) were using the old 9cm Kanone but not if these units were indeed used outside of the fortresses in the first weeks of the war.
The Ehrenbuch is basically just a compilation of vignettes about the heavy artillery in combat (similar Ehrenbücher were written for the guards, Jäger, etc.). It does however contains a big table showing all heavy artillery units (designation, equipment, commanding officer, etc.) at mobilization and at armistice.
In the various texts about the fighting in East Prussia it is hinted that some Landsturm units (1./Ldst. Batl. XIX.AK for example) were using the old 9cm Kanone but not if these units were indeed used outside of the fortresses in the first weeks of the war.
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Re: 8th army heavy and foot artillery in summer of '14
I see, thank you for the information and explanation.
Re: 8th army heavy and foot artillery in summer of '14
The absence of 21cm Mörser is curious. III/Fußartillerie 1 (with two mortar batteries) for example went from Königsberg west to join 3rd army - so maybe it was a deliberate policy?
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Re: 8th army heavy and foot artillery in summer of '14
Well heavy artillery was more needed at the west cause of the offensive manner of operation at that theater and strong fortification that stand on way of advance.
Btw, is this is the table you mentioned, at the bottom of the page:
http://www.lovettartillery.com/Foot%20A ... 01914.html
Btw, is this is the table you mentioned, at the bottom of the page:
http://www.lovettartillery.com/Foot%20A ... 01914.html
Re: 8th army heavy and foot artillery in summer of '14
Hi clandestino,
sorry for the late reply... my children kept me busy. Yes, the Lovett-table is the same as the one from the Ehrenbuch.
That the 21cm mortars were handy in the West to reduce the various French fortified places is understood. Still I never read anywhere that this Schwerpunktbildung was made deliberately.
regards
Latze
sorry for the late reply... my children kept me busy. Yes, the Lovett-table is the same as the one from the Ehrenbuch.
That the 21cm mortars were handy in the West to reduce the various French fortified places is understood. Still I never read anywhere that this Schwerpunktbildung was made deliberately.
regards
Latze
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Re: 8th army heavy and foot artillery in summer of '14
Thanks for the reply. Regarding the table, since you are in possession of the book, can you clarify me the less visible parts of it on the lovettartillery? I'm talking about the far right side of the table and the bottom left part legend.
In the far right column I'm not sure what is written in the 10th cell from above, is it landwehr battalion? And under it, I presume it's landsturm? Than goes the supernumerary and ersatz batteries, if I'm correct?
Regarding the left bottom corner, the symbols are for: 10 m kannone 04, schwere Feldhaubitze ( type? ), schwere kustenmorser ( 30,5 cm ), right? Finally, the symbol under it, the trapeze with points, I can't see the letters clearly, Festung-something? What's that?
Sorry if I'm boring.
In the far right column I'm not sure what is written in the 10th cell from above, is it landwehr battalion? And under it, I presume it's landsturm? Than goes the supernumerary and ersatz batteries, if I'm correct?
Regarding the left bottom corner, the symbols are for: 10 m kannone 04, schwere Feldhaubitze ( type? ), schwere kustenmorser ( 30,5 cm ), right? Finally, the symbol under it, the trapeze with points, I can't see the letters clearly, Festung-something? What's that?
Sorry if I'm boring.
Re: 8th army heavy and foot artillery in summer of '14
Hi clandestino,
no problem, it ain't boring at all!
10th cell: "Rgts-Kdo./Komdr." and "Landwehr" the line below then is "Btln./Komdr."
-> the 10th line this gives the no. and the commander of all Landwehr regiments were they existed (the guards for example had none), the 11th line the equipment, number of batteries and commander of the Landwehr battalions (there was never more than one).
12th cell: "Btln. Landsturm".
13th cell: "überplanmäßige Batterien"
-> you read it correctly
14th cell: "Btln./Kmdr." and "Ersatz"
-> the line below reads: (1-2 Rekr.-Dep., 1 Besp.A.)
the symbols on the leftmost column are:
10 m Kanone 04
schwere Feldhaubitze (96)
schwerer Küstenmörser (30,5 cm)
Festungsbesatzung
regards
Latze
no problem, it ain't boring at all!
10th cell: "Rgts-Kdo./Komdr." and "Landwehr" the line below then is "Btln./Komdr."
-> the 10th line this gives the no. and the commander of all Landwehr regiments were they existed (the guards for example had none), the 11th line the equipment, number of batteries and commander of the Landwehr battalions (there was never more than one).
12th cell: "Btln. Landsturm".
13th cell: "überplanmäßige Batterien"
-> you read it correctly
14th cell: "Btln./Kmdr." and "Ersatz"
-> the line below reads: (1-2 Rekr.-Dep., 1 Besp.A.)
the symbols on the leftmost column are:
10 m Kanone 04
schwere Feldhaubitze (96)
schwerer Küstenmörser (30,5 cm)
Festungsbesatzung
regards
Latze
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Re: 8th army heavy and foot artillery in summer of '14
Thanks again for the reply. So if I understand the table and symbols correctly:
*17. FusAR t consisted solely of two Festungbesatzung battalions with coastal batteries ( I presume ) in Danzig & Pillau
* II/1. FusAR was Festungbesatzung battalion of Boyen , it's armament isn't given in the table, only two points with number 6
* II/15 and and II/11. FusaAr were Festungbesatzung of Thorn and Graudenz, armament?
* 1. landwehr FusAR had 1 surplus Festungbesatzung of Konigsberg the number of points on symbol (8) definitely represents something, batteries?
* 5. landwehr FusaAR also had surplus Festungbesatzung of Posen, of 4 points=batteries(?)? Same goes for Thorn and 11. landwehr FusAr with 7 points.
*17. FusAR t consisted solely of two Festungbesatzung battalions with coastal batteries ( I presume ) in Danzig & Pillau
* II/1. FusAR was Festungbesatzung battalion of Boyen , it's armament isn't given in the table, only two points with number 6
* II/15 and and II/11. FusaAr were Festungbesatzung of Thorn and Graudenz, armament?
* 1. landwehr FusAR had 1 surplus Festungbesatzung of Konigsberg the number of points on symbol (8) definitely represents something, batteries?
* 5. landwehr FusaAR also had surplus Festungbesatzung of Posen, of 4 points=batteries(?)? Same goes for Thorn and 11. landwehr FusAr with 7 points.
Re: 8th army heavy and foot artillery in summer of '14
I am no specialist for Prussian fortresses but as far as I know both Pillau and Weichselmündung (at Danzig) were already obsolete in 1914. I do not think that they had modern guns.
The superscript "6" is explained nowhere! Not on the table and not in the text (p. 45) that introduces it.
On p. 40 is a table given in the text that contains the following number of guns as available in the fortresses:
32 Versuchs-Haubitze 99
618 leichte Feldhaubitze
32 Mörser
152 10cm Kanone 04 and other models (what can that be? 10cm Kanone in Schirmlafette from 1897, 10cm Kanone 99, 10cm Kanone 02 ?)
I think the number of arrows indicates batteries.
The superscript "6" is explained nowhere! Not on the table and not in the text (p. 45) that introduces it.
On p. 40 is a table given in the text that contains the following number of guns as available in the fortresses:
32 Versuchs-Haubitze 99
618 leichte Feldhaubitze
32 Mörser
152 10cm Kanone 04 and other models (what can that be? 10cm Kanone in Schirmlafette from 1897, 10cm Kanone 99, 10cm Kanone 02 ?)
I think the number of arrows indicates batteries.
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Re: 8th army heavy and foot artillery in summer of '14
I understand, so it gives the total number for all fortresses without specification of types and numbers for individual fortresses, including both mobile and immobile guns. Thanks
Der Weltkrieg gives somewhat different figures for Besatzung troops ,although it appears that here Besatzung troops are wider term than just Besatzung troops of fortresses.
http://digi.landesbibliothek.at/viewer/ ... /LOG_0351/
Der Weltkrieg gives somewhat different figures for Besatzung troops ,although it appears that here Besatzung troops are wider term than just Besatzung troops of fortresses.
http://digi.landesbibliothek.at/viewer/ ... /LOG_0351/
Re: 8th army heavy and foot artillery in summer of '14
The term "Besatzung" unfortunately has several (possibly overlapping) meanings:
1) a fortress can have a "Besatzung" as well as a ship or an airplane (in English it is clearer because in the first case it is a garrison in the second a crew).
2) an enemy province will be held down by "Besatzungstruppen" (in English correct translated as occupation troops)
3) in the Imperial German army the land forces were divided into "Feldherr" (active forces), "Ersatzheer" (tasked with training troops etc and supplying the Feldheer with replacements) and "Besatzungsheer". The later containing fortress garrisons as well as other troops guarding installations at home or abroad (thus being "Besatzungstruppen" as in 2.)
Confusing, ain't it
1) a fortress can have a "Besatzung" as well as a ship or an airplane (in English it is clearer because in the first case it is a garrison in the second a crew).
2) an enemy province will be held down by "Besatzungstruppen" (in English correct translated as occupation troops)
3) in the Imperial German army the land forces were divided into "Feldherr" (active forces), "Ersatzheer" (tasked with training troops etc and supplying the Feldheer with replacements) and "Besatzungsheer". The later containing fortress garrisons as well as other troops guarding installations at home or abroad (thus being "Besatzungstruppen" as in 2.)
Confusing, ain't it
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Re: 8th army heavy and foot artillery in summer of '14
Hi. I realize that Besatzungstruppen in the table include more that just troops in the fortresses , after all the headline of the column says Besatzung troops ( including fortresses and coastal fortresses ), so apparently there were some other Besatzungs.
Anyway thanks, you helped me a lot
Anyway thanks, you helped me a lot