" Bloody Victory: The Sacrifice on the Somme..."

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Sid Guttridge
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Re: " Bloody Victory: The Sacrifice on the Somme..."

#16

Post by Sid Guttridge » 02 Jul 2009, 19:00

Hi Michate,

I think you pose a good question.

The Brusilov offensive fell mostly on secondary Austro-Hungarian forces, which suffered the great majority of Central Powers' losses during it. Verdun was, if I remember correctly, more expensive for the main Central Power, Germany, than the Somme but mostly occurred earlier in the year. I believe both cost the Central Powers (and Allies) more men than the Somme.

The Somme therefore fell on an already depleted and stretched Germany, which might help explain why Ludendorf commented that the German army 'could not stand any more Somme fighting', as Terry Duncan posts, rather than 'could not stand any more Verdun fighting' or 'any more Brusilov fighting', both of which had petered out earlier.

Personally, I think Verdun did more physical damage to the German Army than the Somme but, coming when it did, the Somme may have made more impact. At Verdun and after the Brussilov Offensives, Germany had bested what it had rightly originally thought were its only two major opposing continental armies, only to discover on the Somme that, for all its limitations, Britain had developed a major continental army too.

Cheers,

Sid.

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Attrition
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Re: " Bloody Victory: The Sacrifice on the Somme..."

#17

Post by Attrition » 02 Jul 2009, 19:05

~~~~~It's probably better to judge the efficacy of the Entente strategy of 1916 than the Somme in isolation.~~~~~

Is this anglocentric?

To an extent the Entente strategy worked; certainly better than Falky's - the Germans were put under heavy pressure in France, the Austro-Hungarians were reduced to remnants by Brusilov and the Germans had to make a much bigger commitment to compensate. They had to move quickly to bag Rumania because of the food imports that would be lost otherwise. The damage done to the German army in 1916 was the beginning of the end and it can't be denied that for all its failings, Britain's continental-sized war machine made a substantial contribution en debut.

Does anyone know how many square miles the Germans evacuated in early 1917?


glenn239
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Re: " Bloody Victory: The Sacrifice on the Somme..."

#18

Post by glenn239 » 02 Jul 2009, 19:08

Haig's 1918 offensive was a victory for the BEF. This campaign looked nothing at all like the Somme.

In fact, no victory for any power in any battle of WW1 looked like the Somme.

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Attrition
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Re: " Bloody Victory: The Sacrifice on the Somme..."

#19

Post by Attrition » 02 Jul 2009, 19:25

Sid Guttridge wrote:Hi Michate,

I think you pose a good question.

The Brusilov offensive fell mostly on secondary Austro-Hungarian forces, which suffered the great majority of Central Powers' losses during it. Verdun was, if I remember correctly, more expensive for the main Central Power, Germany, than the Somme but mostly occurred earlier in the year. I believe both cost the Central Powers (and Allies) more men than the Somme.

The Somme therefore fell on an already depleted and stretched Germany, which might help explain why Ludendorf commented that the German army 'could not stand any more Somme fighting', as Terry Duncan posts, rather than 'could not stand any more Verdun fighting' or 'any more Brusilov fighting', both of which had petered out earlier.

Personally, I think Verdun did more physical damage to the German Army than the Somme but, coming when it did, the Somme may have made more impact. At Verdun and after the Brussilov Offensives, Germany had bested what it had rightly originally thought were its only two major opposing continental armies, only to discover on the Somme that, for all its limitations, Britain had developed a major continental army too.

Cheers,

Sid.
'The Austro-Hungarians were the principal victims of the Brusilov Offensive'. Falky's eastern strategy in 1915 was to damage the Russian army enough to make it incapable of offensive action and push it out of Poland so that the Austro-Hungarians could cope with the limited threat it posed. Brusilov put paid to that so German forces were needed in greater number in the east than expected.

The German strategic reserve accumulated by early 1916 was invested in offensive action in the west at Verdun, with the aim of inflicting heavy casualties on the French cheaply by relying on artillery to do the bulk of the German army's fighting. This went wrong in the first few weeks so the Germans had to try to inflict losses by infantry attacks instead, since they'd advanced into ground overlooked by the French rather than vice-versa. The British weren't rushed into a relief offensive as they were supposed to so a 'second Verdun' wasn't fought in the vicinty of Arras. Instead the British and French launched a much more formidable attack on the Somme. For all its many faults the British army did far more damage to the German army than Falky thought possible earlier in the year. The fact that the French were able to attack on the Somme and conduct counter-offensives at Verdun shows that Falkenhayn's expectations of Germany's military power were exaggerated even as he rejected Ludendorff et al's belief that a solely military victory was achieveable. Ludendorff referred to 'Somme fighting' and he ought to have known. Do any German sources refer to 'materialschlacht' in relation to Verdun or Russia?

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Attrition
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Re: " Bloody Victory: The Sacrifice on the Somme..."

#20

Post by Attrition » 02 Jul 2009, 19:28

glenn239 wrote:Haig's 1918 offensive was a victory for the BEF. This campaign looked nothing at all like the Somme.

In fact, no victory for any power in any battle of WW1 looked like the Somme.
Is that because there wasn't the infrastructure, never mind the equipment or experience available to the British in mid-1916 that had been built by 1918?

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Re: " Bloody Victory: The Sacrifice on the Somme..."

#21

Post by Attrition » 03 Jul 2009, 23:17

Hmmmm, I've bit the bullet and ordered the paperback. I'll let you know.

glenn239
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Re: " Bloody Victory: The Sacrifice on the Somme..."

#22

Post by glenn239 » 04 Jul 2009, 00:55

Is that because there wasn't the infrastructure, never mind the equipment or experience available to the British in mid-1916 that had been built by 1918?
Victory is yes or no, not why.

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Terry Duncan
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Re: " Bloody Victory: The Sacrifice on the Somme..."

#23

Post by Terry Duncan » 04 Jul 2009, 02:08

The The Somme is a British victory, a limited one, but a victory none the less.

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Re: " Bloody Victory: The Sacrifice on the Somme..."

#24

Post by Attrition » 04 Jul 2009, 10:14

Terry Duncan wrote:The The Somme is a British victory, a limited one, but a victory none the less.
It also built on the equally hard-fought battles of the French and Russians in 1915. To an extent German resilience was assisted by fighting the Entente in detail.

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Re: " Bloody Victory: The Sacrifice on the Somme..."

#25

Post by glenn239 » 04 Jul 2009, 15:42

The The Somme is a British victory, a limited one, but a victory none the less
The Somme was in no shape or form a British victory. It was a bloody stalemate.

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Re: " Bloody Victory: The Sacrifice on the Somme..."

#26

Post by Attrition » 04 Jul 2009, 16:35

Could the Germans afford a stalemate at the price it cost?

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Terry Duncan
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Re: " Bloody Victory: The Sacrifice on the Somme..."

#27

Post by Terry Duncan » 05 Jul 2009, 02:45

The Somme was in no shape or form a British victory. It was a bloody stalemate.
The attacks captured ground and inflicted casualties upon the enemy at a ratio favourable to the attackers. Losses are abour equal, the different methods of recording casualties make it difficult to be exact, but anything remotely like equal losses was favourable to the Entente due to the far greater manpower resources. Stalemate would imply no impact was made on the German lines, which is untrue as major strongpoints were captured by the end of the battle.

As I said, you could argue it was a victory not worth winning, that the cost was too high, that the losses inflicted upon the enemy were not sufficient to justify fighting in the first place. It is far harder to argue the side that took land, held it, and took acceptable losses while inflicting much the same upon the enemy lost or even drew. The best you could argue on that line is a tactical British victory but a strategic draw, but then this would apply to every battle in the west until the last three months of the war.

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Re: " Bloody Victory: The Sacrifice on the Somme..."

#28

Post by Attrition » 05 Jul 2009, 11:24

Attrition wrote:Could the Germans afford a stalemate at the price it cost?
Does anyone know the price the Germans paid to fight the battle?

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Re: " Bloody Victory: The Sacrifice on the Somme..."

#29

Post by glenn239 » 05 Jul 2009, 17:14

Could the Germans afford a stalemate at the price it cost?
Yes.

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Re: " Bloody Victory: The Sacrifice on the Somme..."

#30

Post by Attrition » 05 Jul 2009, 20:25

Hindenburg didn't seem to think so.

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