Historian disputes Hitlers war record
Re: Historian disputes Hitlers war record
Seems to me that this "mistake" of not treating a key source with more care is quite significant, the excuse offered for why this happened quite weak. It is but one more of many examples that casts doubt on this work and further discredits the initially overly-glowing reception that it received--especially among English reviewers. I suspect that this will all make little or no difference to the audience Dr. Weber is catering to; the book tells them what they have wanted to hear, and any argument that challenges this will be met with predictable suspicion. Any corrections now will be irrelevant; to make the book truly reliable and accurate would require a major rewrite--and what are the chances of that happening?
If the book is to be revised, might I suggest one minor change; promote Hitler back to the contemporary equivalent rank of Lance-Corporal, or, better yet, simply use Gefreiter instead. As it stands it gives the book an air of left-wing academic smugness, and really is just downright silly. IIRC the justification for Hitler being a Private is based on some NATO manual!
If the book is to be revised, might I suggest one minor change; promote Hitler back to the contemporary equivalent rank of Lance-Corporal, or, better yet, simply use Gefreiter instead. As it stands it gives the book an air of left-wing academic smugness, and really is just downright silly. IIRC the justification for Hitler being a Private is based on some NATO manual!
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Re: Historian disputes Hitlers war record
Nobody made that claim. I was being sarcastic.I am not aware that the claim was that he was wounded in a drunken brawl in Lille?
The purpose of my sarcasm was to draw attention to the essential point that it does not really matter whether a German soldier was wounded by enemy fire while standing in the first line of defences or while standing in the dugout of the forward position of regimental headquarters some two kilometres behind the first line of defences.
In either case the soldier is "in harm's way", vulnerable to enemy fire. The soldier in the dugout of the forward position of regimental headquarters cannot reasonably be said to be "hiding behind the front".
No sane man willingly exposes himself to enemy fire; even the soldiers in the first line of trenches keep their heads down as much as possible. Yet Dr Weber treats Hitler's own concern for self-preservation as if it were something that made him different from, and less worthy than, the average member of the List regiment.
For example, on page 45, he writes, in relation to the fighting of 29 October 1914 around Gheluvelt:
In other words, Hitler acted like any sane man who does not want to throw his life away needlessly, especially when faced with a hairy Highlander who might lift his kilt at any moment. Hitler wrote to Ernst Hepp about the battle, describing how the men of his unit, when advancing through enemy machine-gun fire, flung themselves down and crawled through a gully; again a totally sane response and in no way an indication of cowardice.At any rate, it is unlikely that Hitler survived because of his superior combat abilities. He was a rather weak young man with scant military training, who had been rejected for military service by the Austrian authorities because of his poor physique less than a year prior to the outbreak of the war (they had eventually caught up with him after his attempt to dodge the draft). Hitler thus almost certainly just tried to stay alive, knowing when to duck, rather than attempting to fell any battle-hardened Highlanders.
Dr Weber's outlook, the ideological basis of his analysis of Hitler's wartime experiences, is demonstrated on page 49, where he writes:
Dr Weber is here making the common mistake of seeing the course of German and European history from the end of the First World War until 1945 as determined by one demonic personality, Hitler. In fact, the effect on Germany of its defeat in 1918 and of subsequent destructive events, including the Great Depression, was such that it was well-nigh inevitable that an extreme nationalist group would come to power in that country and attempt to reverse the outcome of the First World War, regardless of whether that group were led by Hitler or some other person.Hitler's survival was in part due to his assignment to 1st Company. Had he joined any of the companies of 3rd Battalion, he would have been twice as likely to die during the first seven days of combat. Had he been put with Ludwig Klein in 11th Company, the chances of him today being buried in some grave in Flanders and of a dramatically different twentieth centruy would have even been three times higher that the odds he faced through his service in 1st Company. The Higlanders of the Black Watch and the Coldstream servicemen had missed their golden opportunity to kill Hitler on the List Regiment's first day of battle.
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Re: Historian disputes Hitlers war record
Oddly enough, so was I. I believe my position was not disimilar to the one you are putting forward here.Nobody made that claim. I was being sarcastic.I am not aware that the claim was that he was wounded in a drunken brawl in Lille?
This makes Hitler no more or less brave than any other soldier that found themselves stationed in such a position - after all, in the military you go where you are told and dont pick where you position yourself as such - and no doubt there was the standard mix of the brave and the cowardly in that position. Did Hitler deliberately obscure the role he played? That is quite probable, most soldiers do this in one way or another.
I suppose the problem is how people view how Hitler's WWI role was portrayed by Hitler the Nazi's between the war, as if people were led to believe Hitler had been somewhat more heroic than the average soldier it is only fair to expect that his actions were above the level displayed by the majority of the regiment. I would not say that the picture put forward in Mein Kampf made such claims in any way, though it is not uncommon to see the claim 'Hitler was a war hero in WWI' put forward even today.Yet Dr Weber treats Hitler's own concern for self-preservation as if it were something that made him different from, and less worthy than, the average member of the List regiment.
That may well be true, but Dr Weber is hardly the first person to speculate how such an event would have changed history - similar observations have been made about major figures from Alexander the Great to Napoleon and Kennedy. Hitler may not have been the sole determinator of events between the wars, but he did play a massive role none the less.Dr Weber is here making the common mistake of seeing the course of German and European history from the end of the First World War until 1945 as determined by one demonic personality, Hitler.
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Re: Historian disputes Hitlers war record
Hi Guys,
A year and a half on, have any of the contributorsto this thread actually read the book yet?
Cheers,
Sid.
A year and a half on, have any of the contributorsto this thread actually read the book yet?
Cheers,
Sid.
Re: Historian disputes Hitlers war record
I will see if the local university library has it. I understood the following from reading previous biographies:
1. German army of the period considered NCO ranks as solely for those who commanded/supervised subordinates and so inappropriate for a runner who did not have those duties. Being a gefreiter was the most which would be expected from the position holder.
2. Iron Cross First Class was an earned award in the Imperial Army and not one which was promiscuously handed out for propaganda or morale.
From other first world war readings from western front service:
3. No one within range of shellfire had an easy or guarranteed life.
4. Only those who were reliable were considered for the position of running messages. That is not funk in a dugout and delay the message transmittal.
1. German army of the period considered NCO ranks as solely for those who commanded/supervised subordinates and so inappropriate for a runner who did not have those duties. Being a gefreiter was the most which would be expected from the position holder.
2. Iron Cross First Class was an earned award in the Imperial Army and not one which was promiscuously handed out for propaganda or morale.
From other first world war readings from western front service:
3. No one within range of shellfire had an easy or guarranteed life.
4. Only those who were reliable were considered for the position of running messages. That is not funk in a dugout and delay the message transmittal.
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Re: Historian disputes Hitlers war record
Sid,
Try reading the correspondence between me and Dr Weber on this thread.
Try reading the correspondence between me and Dr Weber on this thread.
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Re: Historian disputes Hitlers war record
Hi Michael,
Sorry, I missed your PM of 7 January informing me of your discussion with Dr. Weber.
Good work. Firstly, on actually reading the book, unlike almost anyone else on the thread. That gives you some authority to comment on it.
Secondly, congratulations on raising a serious, substantive objection that proved correct.
I would only say that you could be a bit more gracious to Dr. Weber, not only for having the professional integrity to follow up your point, but to openly admit his error and to agree to modify future editions.
Not only has Dr. Weber done us a service by his own original researches, but you have done us a service by improving on his work.
This is the way AHF and like sites should work and the way authors should respond.
I will insert your correction in my copy of Dr. Weber's book, which remains, as far as I am concerned, recommended reading on a number of levels.
Cheers,
Sid.
Sorry, I missed your PM of 7 January informing me of your discussion with Dr. Weber.
Good work. Firstly, on actually reading the book, unlike almost anyone else on the thread. That gives you some authority to comment on it.
Secondly, congratulations on raising a serious, substantive objection that proved correct.
I would only say that you could be a bit more gracious to Dr. Weber, not only for having the professional integrity to follow up your point, but to openly admit his error and to agree to modify future editions.
Not only has Dr. Weber done us a service by his own original researches, but you have done us a service by improving on his work.
This is the way AHF and like sites should work and the way authors should respond.
I will insert your correction in my copy of Dr. Weber's book, which remains, as far as I am concerned, recommended reading on a number of levels.
Cheers,
Sid.
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Re: Historian disputes Hitlers war record
Sid,
What I find most alarming is that no professional historian seems to have picked up the error.
When I wrote to Dr Weber, I assumed that maybe one of his colleagues had spotted it and alerted him, so I apologised in advance if I was going over old ground. But it fact he was unaware that the translation of "Mein Kampf" used by him was faulty in relation to this particular point.
Presumably his work was peer-reviewed before being published, so it is surprising that no reviewer took the trouble to check his conclusions against the original German text.
It could be that reviewers of the book, both professional historians and journalists, were so pleased by the image of Hitler as a less-than-heroic falsifier of his record of military service that it never occurred to them to check it for accuracy.
It all goes to show that any work of history, no matter how impressive it seems, needs to be read carefully and critically.
Regards,
Michael Mills
What I find most alarming is that no professional historian seems to have picked up the error.
When I wrote to Dr Weber, I assumed that maybe one of his colleagues had spotted it and alerted him, so I apologised in advance if I was going over old ground. But it fact he was unaware that the translation of "Mein Kampf" used by him was faulty in relation to this particular point.
Presumably his work was peer-reviewed before being published, so it is surprising that no reviewer took the trouble to check his conclusions against the original German text.
It could be that reviewers of the book, both professional historians and journalists, were so pleased by the image of Hitler as a less-than-heroic falsifier of his record of military service that it never occurred to them to check it for accuracy.
It all goes to show that any work of history, no matter how impressive it seems, needs to be read carefully and critically.
Regards,
Michael Mills
Re: Historian disputes Hitlers war record
Well said. An example would be in a largely glowing review, Richard J. Evans really only raises one general point of concern:
"Yet Weber goes too far in drawing from these facts the conclusion that the First World War had little effect on overall patterns of German politics, and his argument that the German political system just resumed its steady march toward democracy in the 1920s does not convince."
http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/art ... le2070942/
"Yet Weber goes too far in drawing from these facts the conclusion that the First World War had little effect on overall patterns of German politics, and his argument that the German political system just resumed its steady march toward democracy in the 1920s does not convince."
http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/art ... le2070942/
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Re: Historian disputes Hitlers war record
Hi Michael,
A peer-review system depends on the existence of peer reviewers. In some areas there aren't very many.
A reviewer cannot follow up every note and reference about a specialist subject without prohibitive cost to his own work. He is therefore reduced to comparing the work under review with his own impressions on the subject and is more concerned with the general tenor of a book's argument than every last detail.
There are good examples here on AHF of nit-picking criticisms of books that, even though technically correct in detail, make no substantive impact on the substance of the book's in question. A particulat classic is John P. Moore's Amazon "review" of The Myth of the Eastern Front.
Cheers,
A peer-review system depends on the existence of peer reviewers. In some areas there aren't very many.
A reviewer cannot follow up every note and reference about a specialist subject without prohibitive cost to his own work. He is therefore reduced to comparing the work under review with his own impressions on the subject and is more concerned with the general tenor of a book's argument than every last detail.
There are good examples here on AHF of nit-picking criticisms of books that, even though technically correct in detail, make no substantive impact on the substance of the book's in question. A particulat classic is John P. Moore's Amazon "review" of The Myth of the Eastern Front.
Cheers,
Re: Historian disputes Hitlers war record
Perhaps not, but he certainly had some interesting times there, if the press reports on him fathering a son in France are correct.I am not aware that the claim was that he was wounded in a drunken brawl in Lille?
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldne ... -teen.html
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Re: Historian disputes Hitlers war record
This story came up decades ago and has its own thread here already ("Had Hitler an illegitimate son?").
A simple DNA test could have provided a definitive answer long since, but then it might also undermine any mileage to be made out of the story by any interested parties.
Cheers,
Sid
A simple DNA test could have provided a definitive answer long since, but then it might also undermine any mileage to be made out of the story by any interested parties.
Cheers,
Sid
Re: Historian disputes Hitlers war record
Dr. Weber's books is available quite reasonably through the Military Book Club.
Just FYI.
Just FYI.
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query: small-scale truces in WWI
Dear forum members,
I was wondering if list members could advise me how best to post a query on small-scale truces during World War One? I know that this forum is of course mostly on WWI but I thought that forum members may still have come across references to small-scale truces during WWI. (The problem in figuring out how widespread these kind of truces were is that no-one (at least as far as I know) has looked at this question for the time being which means that references to truces are scattered all over the place and can only be brought together with the help of the large community of people interested in WWI.)
Here is the query:
'May ask forum members for help with a query about small-scale truces during the First World War? I am currently trying to figure out the extent to which small-scale truces, during which combatants tried to meet or to interact, occurred between 1915 and 1918. In other words, I am trying to assess how widespread small-scale truces were once the famous Christmas Truce of 1914 had passed.
I would be most grateful if list members who have come across references to small-scale truces during the First World War could share these with me. My email address is: [email protected]
Kind regards,
Tom (Weber)
Reader in Modern European and International History
University of Aberdeen
I was wondering if list members could advise me how best to post a query on small-scale truces during World War One? I know that this forum is of course mostly on WWI but I thought that forum members may still have come across references to small-scale truces during WWI. (The problem in figuring out how widespread these kind of truces were is that no-one (at least as far as I know) has looked at this question for the time being which means that references to truces are scattered all over the place and can only be brought together with the help of the large community of people interested in WWI.)
Here is the query:
'May ask forum members for help with a query about small-scale truces during the First World War? I am currently trying to figure out the extent to which small-scale truces, during which combatants tried to meet or to interact, occurred between 1915 and 1918. In other words, I am trying to assess how widespread small-scale truces were once the famous Christmas Truce of 1914 had passed.
I would be most grateful if list members who have come across references to small-scale truces during the First World War could share these with me. My email address is: [email protected]
Kind regards,
Tom (Weber)
Reader in Modern European and International History
University of Aberdeen
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Re: Historian disputes Hitlers war record
Hi Tom,
From my general reading, small-scale, passive interaction between opposing sides seems to have been quite common prior to WWI. It often seems to have occurred on river banks while both sides were drawing water. Perhaps the new conditions of WWI increasingly precluded such interaction.
If this is correct, my guess would be that such local truces may have been more common on the Eastern Front than the Western Front.
From anecdotal evidence of my late grandfather (a field artilleryman in WWI) and my ex-boss (a mechanized mortarman in WWII), infantry were much more inclined to want peace and quiet and resented the unnecessary intervention of their own artillery on otherwise peaceful front lines.
Cheers,
Sid.
From my general reading, small-scale, passive interaction between opposing sides seems to have been quite common prior to WWI. It often seems to have occurred on river banks while both sides were drawing water. Perhaps the new conditions of WWI increasingly precluded such interaction.
If this is correct, my guess would be that such local truces may have been more common on the Eastern Front than the Western Front.
From anecdotal evidence of my late grandfather (a field artilleryman in WWI) and my ex-boss (a mechanized mortarman in WWII), infantry were much more inclined to want peace and quiet and resented the unnecessary intervention of their own artillery on otherwise peaceful front lines.
Cheers,
Sid.