Berlin behind Sarajevo? A strange claim...

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glenn239
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Re: Berlin behind Sarajevo? A strange claim...

#736

Post by glenn239 » 17 Jan 2017, 20:59

Slobodan Cekic wrote: Well, the whole manoeuvring on the Serbian border together with the closing festivities in Sarajevo, exactly on June, 28th - St. VitusDay and the day of the Battle of Kosovo 1389 - was a rather obvious provocation.
The Battle of Kosovo in 1389 was not something the average Austrian probably thought about, and if some Serbians managed to see the date as a provocation, that's because they were looking for one.
Apis did tell the war-party story in the secret proceedings in Thessaloniki, I think, and to at least one colleague officer before his imprisonment, if I remember well. But to at least one quite close friend, a member of the 1903 gang, he told that he never expected the kids to succeed. ('It was only to scare him a bit')
This is not reliable evidence.
Killing Ferdinand for being in a Christmas party, war party, or any other one at the moment the Serb army was not mobilized, with it's active units in Macedonia, and Austrian troops on the western frontier - was an obvious and sheer lunacy. So, did something make Apis believe there 'll be no Austrian instant revenge for an failed attempt in Sarajevo, not to speak of a successful one?
The Austrian army, battling outnumbered on two fronts and worried about a third with Italy, would have been quite surprised to discover that Serbia's chances with its ally Russia against Austria were "sheer lunacy".

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Re: Berlin behind Sarajevo? A strange claim...

#737

Post by glenn239 » 17 Jan 2017, 21:29

Slobodan Cekic wrote: Well, as Mombauer said that about examining everyone involved, to me it sounded like she meant the involvement of French, British or the others has not been been examined enough; instead of that everyone has been frying the poor old Germany :)
The most recent book I've read was a modern one (2015?) on the British decision for war. It paints a picture of a clique around Asquith controlling the British entry into the war, which was predetermined by the French entry into the war.
On the contrary, everyone has been examining the roles of the others since the war finished and the proper examination of the German role could not start until 5 decades later. The reason was, it took that long to find the relevant documents, namely the surviving ones that have been overlooked as the Germans purged their Archives thoroughly after the war.
By the "proper" examination of Germany's role, you mean the interpretation of events so as to place Serbia in the role of a victim, as opposed to a territorially revisionist Balkans aggressor that realised an Austro-Russian war was the vehicle for its own aggressive agenda against Austria, correct?
The researchers of the German role had to make an enormous effort in order to reconstruct the truth under such circumstances, just like the attached Röhl's article from one of the previous pages shows.
Germany's role in events was to encourage Austria to a 3rd Balkans war on the calculation that if the war was localised its ally's situation would improve and if Russia mobilized at Austria, war sooner was better than war later.


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Re: Berlin behind Sarajevo? A strange claim...

#738

Post by Slobodan Cekic » 17 Jan 2017, 21:31

Attrition wrote:I don't think the Germans expected a quick victory, given the advantages of the rival coalition but they wouldn't have complained if one fell into their lap.
Well, yes, if you mean Moltke, interestingly, that is true. Moltke believed the war to last in years rather than weeks, but he still stayed with the Schlieffen. And as this fast victory plan backfired in the first half of September, he reported 'We have lost the war, your Majesty' to the Kaiser.

Taken together, his, as far as I am concerned, very correct reasoning, seems to have been:

a) Fast plan is the only chance for Germany against the bigger and economically stronger opponents
b) The opponents got militarily that strong that the fast plan is probably not going to work
c) .. that being said, Germany is probably going to loose the war.

One asks himself at once,what made him repeat 'to War" like a scratched record, then?
I think he and possibly others from the Berlin's war party expected no mercy for Germany from the allies, once the Grand Programme puts the boot to their foot. This feels like a kind of psychological war-trap they fell into.

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Re: Berlin behind Sarajevo? A strange claim...

#739

Post by Attrition » 17 Jan 2017, 22:53

I think all that's a myth concocted after the war. I think that the Germans expected to fight a war of exhaustion from a tactical position of strength, gained by capturing valuable land in Belgium, France and Congress Poland and then riding out the storm, along with occasional medium sized offensives as big spoiling attacks such as 2nd Ypres and Verdun. Like Haig and the BEF, German plans always had provision for the exploitation of success but the main strategy was to wait for the opposing coalition to collapse, mainly through its inner contradictions.

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Re: Berlin behind Sarajevo? A strange claim...

#740

Post by Slobodan Cekic » 17 Jan 2017, 23:03

Here is a part of an very interesting article written by Dusan Batakovic, who is currently the head of the Institute for Balkan Studies of the Serb Academy of Sciences and Arts. The highlighting is mine.

THE SERBS AND THE FIRST WORLD WAR 1914 ̶ 1918

Proceedings of the International Conference held at the Serbian Academy of Sciences and Arts Belgrade, June 13–15, 2014

Edited by Academician DRAGOLJUB R. ŽIVOJINOVIĆ BELGRADE 2015

THE YOUNG BOSNIA AND THE “BLACK HAND”
DUŠAN T. BATAKOVIĆ

...

According to some, less known, sources, Apis did not intend to facilitate assassination, but rather wanted to frighten the Austro-Hungarian heir apparent on the eve of the threatening military manoeuvres which were about to be carried out along the Serbian border, on St. Vitus’ day, the greatest Serbian holiday commemorating the 1389 Battle of Kosovo. Apis received information from his trusted intelligence agent in Croatia, Rade Malobabić, that Austria-Hungary was preparing for war against Serbia. Indeed, the Chief of Austro-Hungarian General Staff, Conrad von Hötzendorf, proposed time and again, from the 1908 annexation crisis to the Balkan Wars of 1912–13, a preventive war against Serbia, and Franz Ferdinand himself endorsed such policy in December 1912. The “war party“ in Vienna demanded that Serbia be neutralised both militarily and politically which would prepare the ground for Austria-Hungary’s drive towards the bay of Salonica and, once and for all, remove the threat of Serbia’s and Montenegro’s irredentist claims.33
Apis confided to his close friend that he particularly feared a sudden Austro-Hungarian invasion while most of Serbian troops were still deployed in the south, in the newly-acquired territories. As for the Sarajevo assassination, he claimed: “I did not believe they [Young Bosnians] would kill him but rather that they would scare him by shooting, so that, although he had had the intention to attack us, he would not have dared to do so, fearing an assassination in Serbia. But you see that they aimed well and killed him”. Having been asked if he had informed Pašić’s government about what was going on Apis replied in the negative and added: “I did not believe that this crazy Russia would go to war, and you see she is going to enter the war”.34

34 A. Antić, Beleške, Zaječar, 2010, 337–340.
(The memoirs of the Apis's closest friend from the 1903 circle, Antonije Antic, which have been released in 2010.)

...

The whole interesting document is in the attachment
The_Young_Bosnia_and_the_Black_Hand.pdf
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Last edited by Slobodan Cekic on 18 Jan 2017, 01:39, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Berlin behind Sarajevo? A strange claim...

#741

Post by Slobodan Cekic » 17 Jan 2017, 23:15

Attrition wrote:I think all that's a myth concocted after the war. I think that the Germans expected to fight a war of exhaustion from a tactical position of strength, gained by capturing valuable land in Belgium, France and Congress Poland and then riding out the storm, along with occasional medium sized offensives as big spoiling attacks such as 2nd Ypres and Verdun. Like Haig and the BEF, German plans always had provision for the exploitation of success but the main strategy was to wait for the opposing coalition to collapse, mainly through its inner contradictions.
Well smaller resources do not recommend a long war of attrition to anyone. The Germans waited (helping a bit) for the Russians to collapse and they did. But, as the US entered the war, Haig and BEF waited for the Germans to collapse and they did.

And as for this, these are really his words being reported, I beleive.

Moltke was the most important among the leaders in Berlin in the Summer of 1914 who demanded the war. As a surprising detail, he also had a clairvoyance to envisage the catastrophe which he drove forward himself. Already in November 1913 he explained during a visit of the Belgian King Albert to Berlin that a war was unavoidable and that it is going to lead to an advantage of America over Europe which would be impossible to catch up with. At the highest point of the July crisis he laid out his assessment of the political situation to the Chancellor. According to it, the war is going to bring "the mutual laceration of the European cultivated countries and destroy the culture of almost the whole Europe for the decades afterwards."
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Re: Berlin behind Sarajevo? A strange claim...

#742

Post by Terry Duncan » 17 Jan 2017, 23:15

glenn239 wrote:The German government's doctrine was that the Russian mobilization, taken between 28th-31st July, was considered the act of war.
As they expected Russia to mobilise if Austria went to war with Serbia, and never made Russia aware of this 'doctrine' that even the leaders in Germany did not agree on until the last two days of the crisis, Russia can hardly be blamed for crossing a line nmobody had told them existed. Even the declaration of war doesnt cite mobilisation, it cites 'mobilisation measures' which includes sealing the Russian border (how dare they close their own borders!), requisitioning horses for the army, and moving all sensitive information into the interior or burning it (how dare they burn things the Germans may like to capture!), and not mobilising the army reserves in full. The complaint was that Russia had even made the most basic preparations, something The Netherlands and Belgium had also both decided on by the end of July - and I wonder who threatened them???
glenn239 wrote:The German policy was consistent throughout, that a 3rd Balkans war was the preferred outcome to a Great Power war, while a Great Power war was preferable to an Austrian humiliation.
The policy of the Central Powers was for war, war on the best terms they could get, but war in all cases, as Berchtold said, a diplomatic victory would be worse than a military defeat! You seem to conveninetly forget it was Austria that had been allowed to conduct the policy of the Central Powers, and do so without even consulting Germany fully about their intent.
glenn239 wrote:The notion Germany's objective was to 'shatter' the Triple Entente is as likely as the Entente's motivation was to partition Germany - I'm not sure where the movie La La Land shall be stored in the Library of Congress, but that's also where I would suggest filing both of those theories.
As Bethmann stated to Reizler that his hope was for Russia to react and then not be supported by Britain or France, which in turn would lead to Russia walking away from the Entente, making her ripe for luring into a German alliance, I think the description 'shatter' quite appropriate. You may well live in La La Land, but we can always put our respective views up for a popular vote to see who does live in a state of delusion? Up to you.
glenn239 wrote:I have answered what is being said - the theory that Germany orchestrated Sarajevo is nonsense and the theory that Poincare wanted war and steered towards it is slightly more plausible in comparison, but still quite a distance out there. (Imperial officials of this era did not commit regicide against their enemies, leave alone their allies, and politicians of Poincare's ilk tend to frame their warlike thinking as watchfulness against a distrustful foe and not premeditated aggression).
Rather curious you wished to bring up my position here as I have not used my status to dictate anything about the discussion. I guess a lot depends on who exactly you class as 'Germany' and who inside Germany may have wanted to put out a false narrative that could lead to Apis believing Franz-Ferdinand was leading the war party. It doesnt need a head of state to be involved to have someone act.
glenn239 wrote:I look forward to your link to the Apis quote then.
Really? Slobodan has already mentioned it was brought up at the time of his arrest, and that it also seems to have been mentioned at another time too. I can link you to an hour or two of McMeekin if you like and you will have to listen to it all to see if it is in those - reviewing hundreds of YouTube videos just to get a line or two and a time stamp is not going to happen, you can take my word for it or listen for yourself. I do not have a reputation for posting incorrect information here or elsewhere. Even if you do not agree with my conclusions of the importance I attach to different aspects of events, I do not believe you will be able to find an outright falsehood, yet alone one deliberately presented as fact when I had knowledge to the contrary. There is a post search feature here, feel free to try and find a case of me acting in such a manner.

As I had promised to find this particular quote for someone, here is the most egregious case of lying I am aware of on this site, the poster himself even adding nice colours so the lie stands out even more, a very clear case of editing history in order to make a case for personal bias being factual. Given he had also posted the full quote without the additions, it was certainly not a case of a mistake, and no source was ever provided despite the promise of 'sources 'til the cows come home' - they are at present twelve years late for milking!
"I am authorised to give an assurance that if the German fleet comes into the Channel or through the North Sea to undertake hostile operations against the French coasts or shipping, the British fleet will give all the protection in its power. If they come out we shall behave as though we are at war.This assurance is, of course, subject to the policy of his Majesty's Government receiving the support of Parliament, and must not be taken as binding his Majesty's Government to take any action until the above contingency of action by the German fleet takes place."

Additions to the HoC in red.
Ommissions in blue.
http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic. ... 5#p1406065

If I had been staff member at the time such a case of outright altering a quote, easily checked in Hansard, would lead to a ban from the site. As it is the post is locked to prevent alteration so it can stand as a mark of shame for all to see.

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Re: Berlin behind Sarajevo? A strange claim...

#743

Post by Attrition » 18 Jan 2017, 00:01

~~~~~Well smaller resources do not recommend a long war of attrition to anyone.~~~~~

They do if you have a more efficient war machine that stands mostly on the defensive, after nabbing choice bits of Belgium, northern France and Congress Poland. Remember that the defensive makes an army approximately three times more effective.

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Re: Berlin behind Sarajevo? A strange claim...

#744

Post by Slobodan Cekic » 18 Jan 2017, 01:01

Terry Duncan wrote:
glenn239 wrote:The German government's doctrine was that the Russian mobilization, taken between 28th-31st July, was considered the act of war.
As they expected Russia to mobilise if Austria went to war with Serbia, and never made Russia aware of this 'doctrine' that even the leaders in Germany did not agree on until the last two days of the crisis, Russia can hardly be blamed for crossing a line nmobody had told them existed. Even the declaration of war doesnt cite mobilisation, it cites 'mobilisation measures' which includes sealing the Russian border (how dare they close their own borders!), requisitioning horses for the army, and moving all sensitive information into the interior or burning it (how dare they burn things the Germans may like to capture!), and not mobilising the army reserves in full. The complaint was that Russia had even made the most basic preparations, something The Netherlands and Belgium had also both decided on by the end of July - and I wonder who threatened them???
glenn239 wrote:The German policy was consistent throughout, that a 3rd Balkans war was the preferred outcome to a Great Power war, while a Great Power war was preferable to an Austrian humiliation.
The policy of the Central Powers was for war, war on the best terms they could get, but war in all cases, as Berchtold said, a diplomatic victory would be worse than a military defeat! You seem to conveninetly forget it was Austria that had been allowed to conduct the policy of the Central Powers, and do so without even consulting Germany fully about their intent.
glenn239 wrote:The notion Germany's objective was to 'shatter' the Triple Entente is as likely as the Entente's motivation was to partition Germany - I'm not sure where the movie La La Land shall be stored in the Library of Congress, but that's also where I would suggest filing both of those theories.
As Bethmann stated to Reizler that his hope was for Russia to react and then not be supported by Britain or France, which in turn would lead to Russia walking away from the Entente, making her ripe for luring into a German alliance, I think the description 'shatter' quite appropriate. You may well live in La La Land, but we can always put our respective views up for a popular vote to see who does live in a state of delusion? Up to you.
glenn239 wrote:I have answered what is being said - the theory that Germany orchestrated Sarajevo is nonsense and the theory that Poincare wanted war and steered towards it is slightly more plausible in comparison, but still quite a distance out there. (Imperial officials of this era did not commit regicide against their enemies, leave alone their allies, and politicians of Poincare's ilk tend to frame their warlike thinking as watchfulness against a distrustful foe and not premeditated aggression).
Rather curious you wished to bring up my position here as I have not used my status to dictate anything about the discussion. I guess a lot depends on who exactly you class as 'Germany' and who inside Germany may have wanted to put out a false narrative that could lead to Apis believing Franz-Ferdinand was leading the war party. It doesnt need a head of state to be involved to have someone act.
glenn239 wrote:I look forward to your link to the Apis quote then.
Really? Slobodan has already mentioned it was brought up at the time of his arrest, and that it also seems to have been mentioned at another time too. I can link you to an hour or two of McMeekin if you like and you will have to listen to it all to see if it is in those - reviewing hundreds of YouTube videos just to get a line or two and a time stamp is not going to happen, you can take my word for it or listen for yourself. I do not have a reputation for posting incorrect information here or elsewhere. Even if you do not agree with my conclusions of the importance I attach to different aspects of events, I do not believe you will be able to find an outright falsehood, yet alone one deliberately presented as fact when I had knowledge to the contrary. There is a post search feature here, feel free to try and find a case of me acting in such a manner.

As I had promised to find this particular quote for someone, here is the most egregious case of lying I am aware of on this site, the poster himself even adding nice colours so the lie stands out even more, a very clear case of editing history in order to make a case for personal bias being factual. Given he had also posted the full quote without the additions, it was certainly not a case of a mistake, and no source was ever provided despite the promise of 'sources 'til the cows come home' - they are at present twelve years late for milking!
"I am authorised to give an assurance that if the German fleet comes into the Channel or through the North Sea to undertake hostile operations against the French coasts or shipping, the British fleet will give all the protection in its power. If they come out we shall behave as though we are at war.This assurance is, of course, subject to the policy of his Majesty's Government receiving the support of Parliament, and must not be taken as binding his Majesty's Government to take any action until the above contingency of action by the German fleet takes place."

Additions to the HoC in red.
Ommissions in blue.
http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic. ... 5#p1406065

If I had been staff member at the time such a case of outright altering a quote, easily checked in Hansard, would lead to a ban from the site. As it is the post is locked to prevent alteration so it can stand as a mark of shame for all to see.
In my Serbian copy of the Dedijer's book, on the page 685, pp.1 in the testimony of D.D.Apis; my translation:

... After Rade has begun his work, I thought, feeling that Austria prepares for war with us, that with the disappearance of the Austrian Heir to the Throne Ferdinand, the military party and current he has been leading would loose its strength and that the war danger to Serbia would be removed or at least somewhat delayed that way, and to that purpose I enlisted Malobabic...

Apis has not been tortured to say this all, but seemingly tricked into this confession, a paper in which he has clearly taken all the responsibility to himself as suggested to him, and in exchange he has been promised not to be shot. Pasic and Alexander needed Apis killed and that paper as well, because there were the separate peace talks between France and Austria at that time, which could reinstate them in Serbia, if..

That may explain his not mentioning Mlada Bosnia at all, whose initiative Sarajevo actually has been. I would not take this confession as really true description of events in it's whole.
You may compare Apis's words to Antonije Antic in the other post and attachment, as well.

I think he has told about Ferdinand being in the War Party on other occasions as well, and that he probably really believed it. How could he believe killing him brings something good to Serbia, beats me. I am tempted to think his intelligence overestimated.
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Re: Berlin behind Sarajevo? A strange claim...

#745

Post by Slobodan Cekic » 18 Jan 2017, 01:17

Attrition wrote:~~~~~Well smaller resources do not recommend a long war of attrition to anyone.~~~~~

They do if you have a more efficient war machine that stands mostly on the defensive, after nabbing choice bits of Belgium, northern France and Congress Poland. Remember that the defensive makes an army approximately three times more effective.
Well, yes, they never really lost their battles - until the financial, supplies and food breakdowns, at home and on the front did them in.
They lost their war.

So what was the point of all this tragedy? It has never been winnable for them. After they failed in the first lightning strike, they just demonstrated their really high military capability in not budging to the allies, hoping for a wonder which never came.

BTW, in the first 3 years of the war, the weapons available favored the defence heavily. That helped, as well. But then this started changing, too..

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Re: Berlin behind Sarajevo? A strange claim...

#746

Post by Attrition » 18 Jan 2017, 16:39

It wasn't a foregone conclusion and they didn't have hindsight. the Tsarist regime collapsed and the French and Italian armies had nervous breakdowns in 1917. The attempt in 1918 to forestall the arrival in force of the US army made military sense even as it sacrificed the Eastern Front peace dividend.

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Re: Berlin behind Sarajevo? A strange claim...

#747

Post by Slobodan Cekic » 18 Jan 2017, 20:43

Attrition wrote:It wasn't a foregone conclusion and they didn't have hindsight. the Tsarist regime collapsed and the French and Italian armies had nervous breakdowns in 1917. The attempt in 1918 to forestall the arrival in force of the US army made military sense even as it sacrificed the Eastern Front peace dividend.
Here is a quote from a nice paper of University of Toronto:

"II. WHY THE ALLIES WON

What did economic factors contribute to victory and defeat in World War I? Before
the event, so to speak, the answer should have been nothing; after the event, it turned
out to be nearly everything. From the standpoint of the German war plan for 1914,
economic factors were not expected to count. The German general staff hoped for
victory in the west within six weeks. The war was intended to be won by military, not
economic means, and was to be finished off long before economic factors could be
brought into play. It was only after this plan had failed, as the leaders on each side
contemplated the ensuing stalemate, that belts began to be tightened and sleeves
rolled up for the mobilisation of entire economies (Chickering and Förster, 2000).
Once plans were redrawn for a longer haul, a war of attrition developed in the
west where the opposing forces of Germany, France, and Britain, each backed by
large, rich, and successful economies, ground each other down with rising force levels
and rising losses. In battles that were intended to be won by the last man left standing,
resources counted for almost everything. Once the German military advantage had
failed to win an immediate victory in the west, it seems inevitable that the greater
Allied capacity for taking risks, absorbing the cost of mistakes, replacing losses, and
accumulating overwhelming quantitative superiority should eventually have turned
the balance against Germany.
The realization of this advantage took time,..."

Well, nothing is a foregone conclusion; but there are things one better avoids doing, cause of the odds against being too high. You are right to point out, as well, that it is easy for me to be smart today, knowing what happened. I do not know, however, how aware the German military had been of the economical aspects of the strategy. If not much, then another point in favor of "war being too serious a thing..". This saying contrasts the German practice during the WWI, though.

Just as you say, 1916 has seen Entente quite exhausted. The Russians themselves had grave misgivings about their chances from the very start. Italy was better not to think of. French soldiers have been mercilessly thrown to the winds at Verdun; officers fearing possible mutinies; the perspectives bleak to say at very least. Separate peace and armistice proposals discussed in secret, very earnestly. But, could it be that someone could retain an oversight of this rather confused picture?

Let us now take into account the international finance. As the war progressed much after the Christmas of 1914 has been forgotten, Britain and France were getting into an ever increasing debt in order to to finance their wartime trade deficits, and it has been the same with Germany. Up till 1916 Germany had no problem to get the loans on the international market, but from that year on, this started getting quite difficult. Why?

The bankers are normally glad to give loans to any side in a war, as long as that does not cross their other plans. Russia has been foundering already, and that could mean Britain and France defeated and defaulting on the enormous loans they received. So the high finance had to do a couple of things to offset the coming collapse of Russia, if they were to see their money back. I think that is why it became difficult for Germans to get that loans, and that had a lot of weight. Even more weight had the entrance of the US into the war which happened for the same very reason - due mostly to the financial circles pulling the strings, as well.

So, the 1917 brought the exit of the financially weakest link of Entente, and the entry of the richest one in it's place.

If anyone in Germany before the war had come to an idea of comparing themselves with their enemies and their likely supporters and joiners, according to the respective total economic and financial weights of the both sides, he would have seen a bleak picture if he could only understand the meaning of these numbers. Now, did their soldiers or politicians understand such economic aspects of strategy at that time, don't ask me, but they should have. And I feel, they could have, as well.

GDP ratio was 1.8 to 1 in favor of Entente in 1913, and it got to 2.5 to 1 in 1917, after US replaced Russia on the allied side. This one line should have been enough, actually.
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Re: Berlin behind Sarajevo? A strange claim...

#748

Post by glenn239 » 18 Jan 2017, 21:10

Attrition wrote:I think all that's a myth concocted after the war. I think that the Germans expected to fight a war of exhaustion from a tactical position of strength, gained by capturing valuable land in Belgium, France and Congress Poland and then riding out the storm, along with occasional medium sized offensives as big spoiling attacks such as 2nd Ypres and Verdun. Like Haig and the BEF, German plans always had provision for the exploitation of success but the main strategy was to wait for the opposing coalition to collapse, mainly through its inner contradictions.
I think that's probably along the lines, except that Moltke hoped to really hit the French much harder in 1914 than he managed. As late as 1916 with a strong BEF in Flanders, the German army still had the impression that it was in their means to cause the collapse of the French army. Moltke hoped for less in 1914 with practically no BEF in Flanders.

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Re: Berlin behind Sarajevo? A strange claim...

#749

Post by glenn239 » 18 Jan 2017, 21:17

Slobodan Cekic wrote:Here is a part of an very interesting article written by Dusan Batakovic, who is currently the head of the Institute for Balkan Studies of the Serb Academy of Sciences and Arts. The highlighting is mine.
The first thing in this piece is,

According to some, less known, sources, Apis did not intend to facilitate assassination, but rather wanted to frighten the Austro-Hungarian heir apparent on the eve of the threatening military manoeuvres which were about to be carried out along the Serbian border, on St. Vitus’ day,

So now the Germans orchestrated the Sarajevo attack against their own ally, but only to frighten the heir and not to kill him? Or, are you saying you no longer believe the quite marginal theory that was the original topic of this thread and are now instead inclined to this somewhat more plausible, but still marginal, theory?

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Re: Berlin behind Sarajevo? A strange claim...

#750

Post by glenn239 » 18 Jan 2017, 21:24

Slobodan Cekic wrote: Well smaller resources do not recommend a long war of attrition to anyone. The Germans waited (helping a bit) for the Russians to collapse and they did. But, as the US entered the war, Haig and BEF waited for the Germans to collapse and they did.
Underlined part did not enter into Moltke's or Conrad's prewar thinking.
Moltke was the most important among the leaders in Berlin in the Summer of 1914 who demanded the war. As a surprising detail, he also had a clairvoyance to envisage the catastrophe which he drove forward himself.
Moltke decided Germany's chances would be better in 1914 than in 1917. In terms of 'catastrophe', the defeat of Russia avoided a hostile partition between France and Russia, which placed Germany in a much better stead post war than otherwise would have been the case. The catastrophe for Germany came with the rise of the Nazis, something Moltke in 1914 wasn't able to see.

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