"Germany was the only responsible for WW1"

[ljadw]

[Split from "The Sleepwalkers - How Europe Went To War in 1914"]

I don't buy it : following a review,Clark says :there is no smoking gun in this story,or rather there is one in the hands of every major character.

Clark tries to dilute the responsability by making every one responsible : if everyone is responsible,no one is responsible .


The truth is very simple : Germany was dissatisfied with the statu quo in Europe and tried to change it,first by threatening and bullying,than by starting a war .
As such,Germany is the only responsible .

[Guilelmus]

I don't buy it : following a review,Clark says :there is no smoking gun in this story,or rather there is one in the hands of every major character.

Clark tries to dilute the responsability by making every one responsible : if everyone is responsible,no one is responsible .


The truth is very simple : Germany was dissatisfied with the statu quo in Europe and tried to change it,first by threatening and bullying,than by starting a war .
As such,Germany is the only responsible .

A agree with your conclusion, but wish to add the fact the Austro-Hungarian Empire too pushed for war.
I translated quotes of state archive matieral in that thread:

http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic. ... 0&start=30
http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic. ... 0&start=45

I have to admit I did not read Clark's book yet, in general I find the cheerings strange, especially those he receives in Germany. (By reading quotes of German and Austrian political and military leaders acting at that time, one can't get the impression anyone of those were sleewalking, they clearly knew what they did and were aware of the consequences.)
Even the famous newspaper Die Welt has a headline:
„Die Deutschen wollen so gern alleine schuld sein", "The Germans want to be the only ones guilty".
„Schon jetzt beginnt Europa, des Ersten Weltkriegs zu gedenken. Nur die Deutschen glauben noch, sie trügen die alleinige Verantwortung an dem Inferno zwischen 1914 und 1918. Unsinn! Von Cora Stephan"
"Europe already starts to commemorate the First Worl War. Only the Germans still believe they were the only ones responsible for the inferno between 1914 - 1918. Nonsense! By Cora Stephan."
http://www.welt.de/debatte/kommentare/a ... -sein.html

In that context, following is interesting too:
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/history/worl ... ebate.html
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/artic ... meron.html

Historian Gerd Krumeich' reviewed Clark's book and dismisses the claim there had been sleepwalkers...
http://www.welt.de/geschichte/article11 ... Macht.html

[ljadw]

[Helmut0815]

The truth is very simple : Germany was dissatisfied with the statu quo in Europe and tried to change it,first by threatening and bullying,than by starting a war .

The truth is never simple as that. So were the other major powers in Europe satisfied with the statu quo, e.g. France did not want to take revenge for 1870/71?

As such,Germany is the only responsible .

IMHO Germany as well as Austro-Hungary may have the main guilt but I absolutely disagree that they were solely responsible. All major European powers had their share of this drama, some more, some less. All wanted the war, the big final clearance. No one maked a serious attempt to stop the outbreak of this madness.
The question is not, who's the only responsible but who's the only innocent? And that is Belgium.

regards


Helmut

[ljadw]

So was France : the elections of 1914 had produced a anti-militaristic and anti-Russian majority. The socialists (Jaurès) were the first party ,and for the socialists,the enemy was not the Kaiser,but the Tsar .
The alliance between France and Russia,which always was more theoretical than real had ceased to exist in 1914.Proof;when Germany declared war on Russia,France did nothing,although it was bound by the treaty with Russia,to declare war on Germany .

[woneil]

So was France : the elections of 1914 had produced a anti-militaristic and anti-Russian majority. The socialists (Jaurès) were the first party ,and for the socialists,the enemy was not the Kaiser,but the Tsar .
The alliance between France and Russia,which always was more theoretical than real had ceased to exist in 1914.Proof;when Germany declared war on Russia,France did nothing,although it was bound by the treaty with Russia,to declare war on Germany .

All disinformation.

As usual through this era the center-left Radicals remained the largest single party with 35% of the popular vote and 32% of the seats. Jaurès' Workers International got 17% of both popular vote and parliamentary seats. They opposed the Three-Year Service law but the Radicals were divided on it. They also sought close relations with the German SPD, who of course were very unenthusiastic about the Kaiser. However, left-labor solidarity crumbled everywhere at the first breath of war.

The Premier, Viviani, was an "independent" socialist who commanded support from the left generally (and much of the center) but was not tied to any particular party (except rather vaguely to the Radicals). Although the left parties generally had campaigned against the Three-Year Service law, Viviani supported it and there was no majority in parliament against is.

The real power in foreign affairs was the President, Poincaré, who was a strident revanchist and outspoken supporter of the Russian alliance. He made Viviani, who knew little of foreign affairs and nothing of the Ministry, the Foreign Minister, which in effect left Poincaré directing foreign relations. In July he dragged Viviani off on a long-arranged trip to St. Petersburg, where their hosts noted that Poincaré did all the talking. Each side had always despised the other's political system, yet the meetings were full of nothing but bonhomie and warm affection. Everyone agreed on the absolute necessity for France and Russia to stand together. The talk was of ultimata, not negotiation or mediation.

The process of declaring war was cumbersome in France. The government learned of Germany's declaration of war at about midnight on 1-2 Aug, when of course the parliament was not sitting. Early the next morning they learned that Germany had declared war on France. It was decided that there was no need to go through the formalities since the German declaration meant a de Jure state of war in any event.

On 7 Aug, as arranged, France launched an attack in the West timed to coordinate with Russia's attack in the East. For what it's worth, the French invaded German territory several days before Germany invaded any French territory.

I say all this in full recognition that facts are irrelevant in the eyes of the True Believer.

Will O'Neil

[Guilelmus]

The truth is never simple as that. So were the other major powers in Europe satisfied with the statu quo, e.g. France did not want to take revenge for 1870/71?

President Poincaré was the first president to dine in the German embassy*, especially during the time of the left-wing cabinets France did not push for a revenge against Germany, but rather turned their attention towards their colonies in Africa.

IMHO Germany as well as Austro-Hungary may have the main guilt but I absolutely disagree that they were solely responsible. All major European powers had their share of this drama, some more, some less. All wanted the war, the big final clearance. No one maked a serious attempt to stop the outbreak of this madness.
The question is not, who's the only responsible but who's the only innocent? And that is Belgium.

I read about the claim "others" were responsible for the war too, but I never saw any evidence for that. Could you please give a hint on a smoking gun which provides evidence countries other than the German Empire and the Austro-Hungarian Empire partly are responsible for starting the war?

The assassination of the Arch-Duke in Sarajevo was a welcomed opportunity to start a war, it was a pretext, not the reason for war. Hoyos demanded and got a "free hand" against Serbia in Berlin, the famous blank cheque.
http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mission_Hoyos
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alexander, ... uly_Crisis
http://www.chroniknet.de/daly_de.0.html ... h=7&day=24

On July 24, 1914, GB and Russia promosed a preaceful settlement of the conflict. [Sir Edward Grey says: "...never before seen one State address to another independent State a document of so formidable a character". He at once proposes four-Power (Great Britain, Germany, France, Italy) mediation]. France and Italy accepted the proposal, Germany rejected. At July 26, a Russian proposal to mediate was rejected by Austria-Hungary. At July, 27 Grey proposed an European conference, Germany did not respond, Grey's request to Germany at July 29 how a war could be prevented ("suggest any method by which the influence of the four Powers could be used together to prevent a war between Austria and Russia.") was not answered by Germany. At July 29 as well the Czar wrote telegram to the Kaiser where he proposed to settle the Austrian-Serbian problem via the Hague Tribunal. That telegram was not answered. At July, 28 already King George V already had proposed an European conference of ambassadors in order to prevent a war, no German reply.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Karl_Max,_ ... 914_Crisis

*
http://books.google.de/books?id=ti6sAAA ... sy&f=false

[Guilelmus]

(...)
The real power in foreign affairs was the President, Poincaré, who was a strident revanchist and outspoken supporter of the Russian alliance. (...)

What is your source of that, please?

In early 1922, what the British historian John Keiger called a:

"a lavishly funded propaganda campaign by Germany, but also the Soviet Union bent on discrediting its tsarist predecessors, which had a considerable effect on "Anglo-Saxon" and neutral countries, contributing in the postwar era to the image of France, and Poincaré in partciular as Germanophobe, bellicose, militaristic and intent on restoring French hegemony to the European continent"

Keiger argued that:

"France was an excellent scapegoat on to whom the blame could be shifted. Because in a war with Germany in 1870 she had lost the two provinces of Alsace-Lorraine, it was suggested that for virtually the next half-century she had prepared for a war of revanche against Germany to regain the lost territories. Because from 1912 France's new leader Raymond Poincaré, who was a Lorrainer in the bargain, was determined to apply resolute policies and to strengthen the links with France's allies, particularly with Russia, it was suggested that he had plotted a war of revanche against Germany...Poincaré was charged with having encouraged Russia to begin the conflict. The idea of Poincaré-la-guerre gained currency. It was picked up and used to all ends. In France, it was to political use when Poincaré's political opponents wished to stop him returning to power in 1926. In the end when the argument subsided, because facts had been manipulated and evidence distored, inevitably confusion had resulted and some of the mud stuck."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Raymond_Po ... remiership

I say all this in full recognition that facts are irrelevant in the eyes of the True Believer.

Just as a general note, the poisonous propaganda spread by the Zentralstelle zur Erforschung der Kriegschuldfrage (Centre for the Study of the Causes of the War) found its way into the serious historical reaeach via isolationist US historians.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Centre_for ... of_the_War

[woneil]

The picture of Poincaré is quite consistent across literally every one of the scores of books and articles I've read regarding France and her politics in the years before the war. The differences are matters of degree and nuance, no more. I do not accept that every one of those scholars (most quite prominent and of a variety of nationalities) were wrong or misled by clumsy German propaganda. It's certainly a matter of clear and incontestable record that he was the driving force behind the Three-Year Service law and a major proponent of the Russian alliance. And Viviani essentially acknowledged Poincaré's primacy in foreign affairs in his memoirs.

Will O'Neil

[ljadw]

Germany did declare war on Russia on 1 august 1914,and France did nothing .

Germany did declare war on France on 3 august 1914.

About Poincaré : HE HAD NO POWER AT ALL AND WAS DESPISED BY THE MAJORITY OF THE FRENCH PARLIAMENT .


The rest is only propaganda frm the Zentralstelle zur Erforschung der Kriegsschuldgrage relayed by US "historians" : better mercenaries,working for German gold ;and Holocaust deniers .The exemple is : Harry Barnes,better known as Adolf Barnes/Harry the Nazi . :roll:

[woneil]

NEWS FLASH: Clark is not in any conceivable sense a "U.S. historian," and his sources on France generally and Poincaré's role in particular are almost all French, mostly archival. And none of them are the Wikipedia articles you seem to depend on exclusively.

Will O'Neil

[ljadw]

Clark has been debunked by most serious historians :his aim is only to whitewashing Germany,by saying that everyone was guilty .

[Guilelmus]

NEWS FLASH: Clark is not in any conceivable sense a "U.S. historian,"

No one claimed he were. Clark claims everyone contributed to the outbreak of war (which e.g. Lloyd George, Rosa Luxemburg and Lenin did before him), whereas the US isolationist historians claimed Germany was the least guilty for war.

and his sources on France generally and Poincaré's role in particular are almost all French, mostly archival. And none of them are the Wikipedia articles you seem to depend on exclusively.

Well, this archive material does not change the fact France had no interest in a war for various reasons - they knew France would not stand a chance against Germany, and the left-wing cabinets in general were reluctant to wage war. Like it has been posted before, France did not declare war on Germany (despite they had signed the anti-German Franco-Russian Alliance in 1892) after Germany had declared war on Russia. It was Germany declaring war on passive France.
http://www.historyonthenet.com/Chronolo ... ewwone.htm
http://www.firstworldwar.com/source/ger ... france.htm
http://www.firstworldwar.com/source/poi ... ug1914.htm

[ljadw]

[[/quote]

All disinformation.



On 7 Aug, as arranged, France launched an attack in the West timed to coordinate with Russia's attack in the East. For what it's worth, the French invaded German territory several days before Germany invaded any French territory.



Will O'Neil[/quote]

Desinformation :

Already on 2 august,a French soldier (corporal Peugeot) was killed by the Germans INSIDE France .

[Cerdic]

After reading Max Hastings and other sources, I am convinced that Germany did have the primary responsibility for the war. But Austro-Hungary did too, even though their war against Serbia was backed by a German guarantee.

Ultimately the First World War was the result of a system of alliances based off of centuries-old rivalries.