"Germany was the only responsible for WW1"

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ljadw
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Re: Start Date For The Great War

#976

Post by ljadw » 03 Jul 2014, 23:00

Don71 wrote:The answer is YES and you know it!

Both Russia and France mobilized before Germany after primary sources.

You can deny this or do your biased claims the next 1000 years the time of mobilization are hard facts from primary sources from France, Russia and Germany and all your babbling is simply bullshit.

Proof that the Russian and French mobilizations were threatening Germany ?

Answer : there is no such proof,because these mobilizations did not threaten Germany .

Of course, the goose-steppers never will accept this, because it is proving tat Germany was lying .

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Re: Start Date For The Great War

#977

Post by ljadw » 03 Jul 2014, 23:06

From "the Coming of the First World War P 117) (written by R.Evans and Hartmut Pogge von Strandman)

1) It is therefore not surprising to learn that Germany did not have any interest in pursuing a peaceful solution of the Serbo-Austrian conflict and in localizing it .

2)From the middle of July onwards, the German general staff began to push for the pursuit of German interests = for a European war .


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Don71
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Re: Start Date For The Great War

#978

Post by Don71 » 03 Jul 2014, 23:10

As always nothing but biased claims instead of something substained.

For every country of the world it is threatening,in fact an act of war, if the most powerfull neighbor countries, which are in an alliance, starting fully mobilization. Who deny this simply lies.

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Terry Duncan
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Re: "Germany was the only responsible for WW1"

#979

Post by Terry Duncan » 04 Jul 2014, 00:47

I have moved the above exchange to this thread as they have little to do with the start date of the war and mostly concern the motives behind events.

T Duncan

AJFFM
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Re: Start Date For The Great War

#980

Post by AJFFM » 04 Jul 2014, 20:37

ljadw wrote: 1)Of course it was possible to localize a war between Austria and Serbia,but Germany did not want such localization .
:thumbsup: :thumbsup: :thumbsup:

Finally you saw the light I spent months trying to onvince you that it really exists.
ljadw wrote: 2)there was NO serious Russian reaction after the Austrian DOW on Serbia : no recall of its ambassador, no rupture of the diplomatic relations, no ultimatum,no DOW,and,if Russia did not react, no onewould react .
I would say full mobilisation in response to a war between two sovereign countries neither of which have an official or an unofficial alliance with you counts as serious enough especially with a third party that is bordering you, has told he will consider such mobilisation as an act of war and also borders a fourth party that has an official alliance with you. Clear enough.
ljadw wrote: 3)Of course,there was a German decision to go to war irrespective any action by Russia : if Russia intervened, Germany would declare war, if Russia only was mobilizing, Germany would declare war (there WAS a German DOW in the OTL),if Russia did nothing, Germany still would declare war : the reason is obvious : the German DOW on Russia had NOTHING to do with what was happening in the East :Germany declared war on Russia,because this would give her the occasion/pretext to start a war in the West .
Speculation. Germany waited for two days after mobilisation was official before making a move against Russia during which it communicated it clearly to Russia and France its intentions. Here is where Russian decision making failed and sent the worng signal.

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Terry Duncan
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Re: Start Date For The Great War

#981

Post by Terry Duncan » 04 Jul 2014, 20:54

AJFFM wrote:Speculation. Germany waited for two days after mobilisation was official before making a move against Russia during which it communicated it clearly to Russia and France its intentions. Here is where Russian decision making failed and sent the worng signal.
Where do you propose this two day delay was?

The Germans also did not communicate clearly at all to Russia, the ultimatum says Russia must cease all mobilisation measures, so all the pre-mobilisation measures such as recalling officers from leave and cancelling leave, by this point being conducted across Europe were forbidden to Russia because another nation demanded it? Also the ultimatum does not specify that failure by Russia to comply will lead to war, the ultimatum clearly says only that Germany will be forced to mobilise herself. Why was Germany unwilling to tell Russia that non-compliance would mean war? It is even more odd that the 'copies' of the ultimatum sent to London and Paris actually do name war as the consequence if Russia does not do as Germany demands. Why would the Germans send two conflicting versions of their intentions?

Much as I disagree with ljadw on many of his points on this matter, Germany was far from innocent by this point, sending signals that were so contradictory that they led people to conclude that the Central Powers were determined upon war and all that remained was to decide the timing and manner that each nations entered the war.

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Re: "Germany was the only responsible for WW1"

#982

Post by ljadw » 04 Jul 2014, 21:31

The most important point is still neglected : why was Germany declaring war on Russia ? Germany had only a defense IF the Russian mobilisation was threatening Germany, and, it was NOT threatening Germany:

1) There had been mobilisations prior 1914,which did not result in a German DOW.

2)Russia mobilised 15 divisions on the border with Germany,and, these were defeated at Tannenberg by 8 German divisions

3)France mobilised 57 ID and 10 CD on the border with Germany,and this did not result in a German DOW :in her DOW,Germany was talking about French air attacks

4) When Russia mobilised considerable forces on the border with AH,AH did NOT declare war,nor did Germany .

5)IF the Russian mobilisation was threatening Germany,the logical result would be that Germany would concentrate the main part of its forces in the East,not in the West .

Other point: after Sarajevo,everyone was cheating and abandoning its ally :Russia did nothing when Germany invaded France,France did nothing when Germany declared war on Russia,AH delayed its DOW on Russia till 6 august (FIVE days after the German DOW on Russia,Germany lied to AH : it said : if the war with Serbia results in a war with Rusia, we will help ou : reality is that Germany totally abandoned AH: it was going west .

Germany had invented the whole scenario : AH would invade Serbia, this would result in a war between AH and Russia,Germany would declare war on Russia and GO WEST .
But,the scenario failed(it depended on the AH willingness to commit suicide) : AH did NOT invade Serbia (there was no AH invasion between 28 july and 1 august) and Russia did not declare war on AH .But,war with Russia was the conditio sine qua non for an attack in the west,thus Germany started the war in the east to be able to go west .

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Re: "Germany was the only responsible for WW1"

#983

Post by leslieb123 » 05 Jul 2014, 12:01

Firstly,Article 231 of the Treaty of Versailles - the so called 'War Guilt' clause states

"...Germany accepts the responsibility of Germany and her Allies for causing all the loss and damage...by the aggression of Germany and her allies."

So,Germany WAS NOT forced to admit sole blame for WW1,the blame was to be shared with Germany's allies.

Germany should take the major share of blame for starting WW1 as they were the main instigators.The Kaiser gave Austria unconditional support against Serbia during the July Crisis,even though he knew that this would almost certainly mean war with Russia,and therefore Russia's ally France.Further,Germany was the only major country whose war plan could turn a localized dispute into a European wide,and therefore global,war.The Schlieffen Plan meant that mobilization of the German army - announced 1 August,so 2 days before the declaration of war against France and Belgium - meant war within 48 hours because of German army railway schedules,something both the Kaiser and German army high command were well aware of at the time.Germany had also declared war against Russia (1 August).
Malfunctioning link removed by this moderator. Terry
Finally,the Germans wanted a general European war (which they believed they would win quickly) to break out.This is clear from discussions that had been going on for some years between the Kaiser,his army commanders,and his Chancellor,all of which were recorded in the Imperial archives.

So Germany gets the majority of blame for starting WW1 because they deserve to.

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Re: "Germany was the only responsible for WW1"

#984

Post by AJFFM » 05 Jul 2014, 17:22

ljadw wrote: The most important point is still neglected : why was Germany declaring war on Russia ? Germany had only a defense IF the Russian mobilisation was threatening Germany, and, it was NOT threatening Germany:

1) There had been mobilisations prior 1914,which did not result in a German DOW.
It happened once and was not directed at Germany. This was something else entirely different. There was no justification whatsoever for Russia mobilisation on German borders (while mobilising on A-H borders was perfectly sensible) nor for a general mobilisation which included areas not close to any border.

ljadw wrote: 2)Russia mobilised 15 divisions on the border with Germany,and, these were defeated at Tannenberg by 8 German divisions
But these were not the only units Russia mobilised. Their mobilisation against Germany was slower than against A-H for strategic reasons. It was easier to finish the A-H armies first (especially with them now bogged down in Serbia) than fight the Germans who were busy with the French. And in any case these units were enough to cause massive havoc in the German ranks. Plus had they been better lead they would have probably take Koenigsberg by September.
ljadw wrote: 3)France mobilised 57 ID and 10 CD on the border with Germany,and this did not result in a German DOW :in her DOW,Germany was talking about French air attacks
The declaration of war specifically listed violation to Belgian sovereignty of which Germany was a guarantor. This was an obvious manoeuvre to justify intervention in Belgium in accordance with German planning. In the White book (issued to foreign embassies one day after the DoW on France) mobilisation and French refusal to answer if they would honour their treaty with Russia was cited too.
ljadw wrote: 4) When Russia mobilised considerable forces on the border with AH,AH did NOT declare war,nor did Germany .
See answer above.
ljadw wrote: 5)IF the Russian mobilisation was threatening Germany,the logical result would be that Germany would concentrate the main part of its forces in the East,not in the West .
I think you pretty much know the answer to this hypothetical question.
ljadw wrote: Other point: after Sarajevo,everyone was cheating and abandoning its ally :Russia did nothing when Germany invaded France,France did nothing when Germany declared war on Russia,AH delayed its DOW on Russia till 6 august (FIVE days after the German DOW on Russia,Germany lied to AH : it said : if the war with Serbia results in a war with Rusia, we will help ou : reality is that Germany totally abandoned AH: it was going west .
Not really. Russia moved faster than anyone expected and in many eyes cost the Germans the war by forcing Germans to move troops east at the very moment the battle was being decided in the Marne. A-H declared war because of its alliance obligations and Russia would have jumped at war even if there was no DoW since it was building troops against A-H more than it was building them against Germany.
ljadw wrote: Germany had invented the whole scenario : AH would invade Serbia, this would result in a war between AH and Russia,Germany would declare war on Russia and GO WEST .
But,the scenario failed(it depended on the AH willingness to commit suicide) : AH did NOT invade Serbia (there was no AH invasion between 28 july and 1 august) and Russia did not declare war on AH .But,war with Russia was the conditio sine qua non for an attack in the west,thus Germany started the war in the east to be able to go west .
Plausible but still speculative. Why Russia would drag itself in this situation to begin with knowing it would be the most to lose if anything went south and with Germany as your enemy it would at some point?

Anyway not to hate on you or anything but Go Argentina! :)

ljadw
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Re: "Germany was the only responsible for WW1"

#985

Post by ljadw » 05 Jul 2014, 17:47

A state needs no justification to mobilize ,but,unless Germany could prove that the Russian mobilization was threatening her,she had no justification for a DOW.

BTW: I don't care who wins this evening .

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Re: "Germany was the only responsible for WW1"

#986

Post by ljadw » 05 Jul 2014, 17:54

The German DOW on France mentions specificially as reason French air attacks on German cities.Nothing else is mentioned in the DOW the German ambassador was delivering on 3 august :not the French mobilization,not the French alliance with Russia .

The reasons for a DOW are given in the DOW, not later in some coloured book(which is only propaganda) .

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Re: "Germany was the only responsible for WW1"

#987

Post by ljadw » 05 Jul 2014, 18:02

[quote="AJFFM

Plausible but still speculative. Why Russia would drag itself in this situation to begin with knowing it would be the most to lose if anything went south and with Germany as your enemy it would at some point?[/quote]

No : the Russian policy was a success : it mobilized to prevent AH from invading Serbia,and,as AH was NOT invading Serbia on 1 august,there was no war between AH and Russia,as this was ruining Germany's hope on a general war, Germany saw no other alternative than to start the war herself .

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Re: "Germany was the only responsible for WW1"

#988

Post by JAG13 » 06 Aug 2014, 23:36

leslieb123 wrote:
Finally,the Germans wanted a general European war (which they believed they would win quickly) to break out.This is clear from discussions that had been going on for some years between the Kaiser,his army commanders,and his Chancellor,all of which were recorded in the Imperial archives.

So Germany gets the majority of blame for starting WW1 because they deserve to.
Im usually against burning books, but you should go ahead and incinerate the one where you read that jewel.

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Terry Duncan
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Re: "Germany was the only responsible for WW1"

#989

Post by Terry Duncan » 07 Aug 2014, 00:54

JAG13 wrote:
leslieb123 wrote:
Finally,the Germans wanted a general European war (which they believed they would win quickly) to break out.This is clear from discussions that had been going on for some years between the Kaiser,his army commanders,and his Chancellor,all of which were recorded in the Imperial archives.

So Germany gets the majority of blame for starting WW1 because they deserve to.
Im usually against burning books, but you should go ahead and incinerate the one where you read that jewel.
The military, not only in Germany, seem to have allowed the 'quick war' impression to continue for various reasons, though with Germany the details of Moltke urging war 'the sooner the better' is well known and accepted by almost all authors. The feelings that 'this war may last years' were kept more private by comparison, possibly because to admit a quick war was impossible was also to admit that it was not possible to win a war at all now.

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Re: "Germany was the only responsible for WW1"

#990

Post by JAG13 » 07 Aug 2014, 01:14

I would say that they thought their only chance to win was a short war and they chanced it because they knew a long war offered little prospects of success, but they also saw a short was unlikely.

The Germans were everything but confident on the result, rather now than later... not better, just less bad.

German decisions come from a weak position, not from a strong one, they must always be analyzed under that light.

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