"Germany was the only responsible for WW1"

Discussions on all aspects of the First World War not covered in the other sections. Hosted by Terry Duncan.
Post Reply
ljadw
Member
Posts: 15588
Joined: 13 Jul 2009, 18:50

Re: "Germany was the only responsible for WW1"

#856

Post by ljadw » 15 Apr 2014, 22:28

On 31 juy ,Begium,Holland and Turkey ordered mobilisation .

ljadw
Member
Posts: 15588
Joined: 13 Jul 2009, 18:50

Re: "Germany was the only responsible for WW1"

#857

Post by ljadw » 15 Apr 2014, 22:30

Don71 wrote:
ljadw wrote:AH mobilized on 25 july,on 28 july at 6 PM AH declared war on Serbia.

Thus,the claim on post 851 that till 31 juy no other country had mobilized proves the ignorance of the poster,or maybe his POV is that AH was no country ?
Your next smoke ball!
Serbia mobilized at 25 July and AH partly mobilized opposite to Serbia, but not the districts opposite to Russia.

The next bias blah blah.
You claimed that till 31 july no other country had mobilized : you were wrong :Serbia and AH had already mobilized .


User avatar
Don71
Member
Posts: 332
Joined: 30 Jan 2011, 15:43

Re: "Germany was the only responsible for WW1"

#858

Post by Don71 » 15 Apr 2014, 22:39

AH as big power mobilized PARTLY for a war with Serbia, which mobilized at 25 July.

Russia did a full mobilization at 27 July, which included mobilization opposite to Germany and AH, which has not mobilized it's districts opposite to Russia, and Germany was a big power which was at no time involved with the issue Serbia.! AH reacted to the Russian full mobilization at 31 July, which they did not at 25 of July!

Russia clearly lied and denied it's full mobilization between 27 to 31 of July! This is the smoking gun and a clear provocation nothing else and you has not a single source which prove the opposite!
Your whole argumentation is screwed through the actions of Russia after the visit of Poincare`and Viviani, because the action is obvious!

All other posts from you are only blah blah without facts.

User avatar
Baltasar
Member
Posts: 4614
Joined: 21 Feb 2003, 16:56
Location: Germany

Re: "Germany was the only responsible for WW1"

#859

Post by Baltasar » 15 Apr 2014, 23:42

I also wonder why Germany would not mobilize if both her direct neighbours (France and Russia) did so when the neighbours coincidentally had a military agreement regarding the country in between them.

User avatar
Terry Duncan
Forum Staff
Posts: 6270
Joined: 13 Jun 2008, 23:54
Location: Kent

Re: "Germany was the only responsible for WW1"

#860

Post by Terry Duncan » 16 Apr 2014, 00:08

I think after 58 pages of discussion, where many of the most recent pages have been wasted with nothing more than unsourced opinion, it is safe to close this topic for a time. Hopefully this will allow some actual evidence to be produced at a later date.

Terry

User avatar
Terry Duncan
Forum Staff
Posts: 6270
Joined: 13 Jun 2008, 23:54
Location: Kent

Re: "Germany was the only responsible for WW1"

#861

Post by Terry Duncan » 17 Apr 2014, 19:35

Thread unlocked as promised, but can people please supply sources when asked for them, and answer questions with the relevant details and not just other questions from now on. Flame bait posts and insults will be removed and offenders dealt with accordingly.

Terry

User avatar
Attrition
Member
Posts: 4005
Joined: 29 Oct 2008, 23:53
Location: England

Re: "Germany was the only responsible for WW1"

#862

Post by Attrition » 06 May 2014, 17:14

Lieber: The New History of World War I and What It Means for International Relations Theory

http://belfercenter.ksg.harvard.edu/fil ... Lieber.pdf

Having hit a strategic pause in my rewriting of Wikipaedia's Western Front pages for 1915-1917, I've been trying to remember why I don't think that the German invasion of France was a "failure" in terms of German intentions. I chanced on this again which I read about a decade ago, which has something to say about the German role in starting the war.

http://www18.georgetown.edu/data/people ... -69254.pdf

woneil
Member
Posts: 115
Joined: 07 Jun 2006, 04:40
Location: Near Washington, DC

Re: "Germany was the only responsible for WW1"

#863

Post by woneil » 07 May 2014, 07:59

Attrition wrote:Lieber: The New History of World War I and What It Means for International Relations Theory

http://belfercenter.ksg.harvard.edu/fil ... Lieber.pdf

Having hit a strategic pause in my rewriting of Wikipaedia's Western Front pages for 1915-1917, I've been trying to remember why I don't think that the German invasion of France was a "failure" in terms of German intentions. I chanced on this again which I read about a decade ago, which has something to say about the German role in starting the war.

http://www18.georgetown.edu/data/people ... -69254.pdf
I list both Keir Lieber's article and the subsequent exchange between Jack Snyder and Lieber in the bibliography of my book, The Plan That Broke the World. Ultimately, however I did not find occasion to cite either specifically in my source notes. That is, I think they have some things to say about the origins of WW I, but perhaps less than meets the eye. I note that the Lieber article is very little cited in the IR or historical literature, suggesting that it has had quite limited impact (to say nothing of having done Lieber's career little good).

Snyder is one of the better of the IR specialists who've devoted attention to WW I, but I cannot see anything in what either he or Lieber says that would lead you to imagine that they support any notion that Moltke desired or expected as stalemate as the result of his offensive in the West. In fact, Snyder pretty flatly denies this as a possibility. It seems clear from the accounts we have from various members of his staff at OHL that Moltke was going for victory and nothing else. His pullback to the Aisne was seen as a temporary measure to permit reforming and reinforcing his armies for a further push.

It scarcely seems likely that Moltke was attempting to get canned, as he was immediately the offensive faltered.

I wonder what to make of your remark that you'd seen the Lieber-Snyder papers a decade ago. The Lieber appeared in print less than 7 years ago — did you see it in draft before then? Surely Snyder didn't write his before then.

Will O'Neil
William D. O'Neil
The Plan That Broke the World
http://whatweretheythinking.williamdone ... /Index.htm

ljadw
Member
Posts: 15588
Joined: 13 Jul 2009, 18:50

Re: "Germany was the only responsible for WW1"

#864

Post by ljadw » 07 May 2014, 08:50

What Lieber is saying on P 189/190 of his answer to Snyder is correct .

User avatar
Attrition
Member
Posts: 4005
Joined: 29 Oct 2008, 23:53
Location: England

Re: "Germany was the only responsible for WW1"

#865

Post by Attrition » 07 May 2014, 10:02

It was so long ago that I guessed.

"Yet, unlike Hitler, German leaders in 1914 did not appear to suffer from brazen overconfidence. They provoked war knowing it would almost certainly be protracted and bloody." p.191.

What gave some of this view ("'the short-war illusion' illusion") credence with me, was the analysis of ermattungskrieg in Foley's book, which I saw a while later (when I'd forgotten about the Lieber article). I don't know what Moltke expected of the invasion of France, although I suspect he hoped for a decisive victory and tried for one but not to the extent of risking decisive defeat. There is evidence cited in Strachan that at least some provision was made before the war for a war of exhaustion but where Moltke was in this I don't know. The idea that Ze Plan! could have saved the Europeans a bloodbath or two if only it had been implemented properly or better, seems to me to be a romantic illusion, which harks back to German post-war operational analysis, which perforce assumes that changing one thing doesn't change everything else.

I suppose I'll have to get on and finish your book.

woneil
Member
Posts: 115
Joined: 07 Jun 2006, 04:40
Location: Near Washington, DC

Re: "Germany was the only responsible for WW1"

#866

Post by woneil » 07 May 2014, 18:49

ljadw wrote:What Lieber is saying on P 189/190 of his answer to Snyder is correct .
If you mean his statement that
The new history indicates that Germany desired rather than feared that its enemies would mobilize first in the summer of 1914. Civilian and military leaders alike manipulated the crisis as a means to launch the war they wanted. Germany was not caught off guard by British nonneutrality; it was not compelled to launch its war plan for fear of Russian mobilization or French attack; and it was not wracked by weak civil-military relations that allowed the generals to pursue an independently hawkish strategy. Instead, German leaders expected British intervention in any continental war (and based their military planning on that assumption); they feared that Russia would not mobilize first (which would have possibly robbed Germany of the opportunity to launch the war it wanted or, at a minimum, would have complicated Germany’s effort to pin the blame for war on its enemies); and they were united to a remarkable degree about Germany’s political and military objectives.
then I believe you are misled.

It is of course true that the Kaiser, Bethmann, and Jagow are on record as having been eager to ensure that their country did not bear the onus for having started the war, but so were their counterparts in chanceries across Europe. While der Großer Generalstab had long assumed British alliance with France (regardless of the fate of Belgium) the Kaiser and the civilians had not, and were desperately anxious to avoid it.

More significantly, while Moltke and Falkenhayen were insisting on the necessity of mobilization, the Kaiser and the civilians resisted and made reasonable (if foredoomed) efforts to persuade St. Petersburg to change course. They did not agree to mobilize in return until there was real danger that they would soon face substantial forces mobilized on the German frontier with no troops to guard against them. Moreover, the French were known to have about a day's advantage on speed of mobilization and it was clear that they were preparing to mobilize. (In fact they declared mobilization a few minutes before Germany, though neither knew it then.) If the Germans had delayed by even 48 hours they would not have been fully prepared by the time the French and Russians launched their pre-arranged simultaneous offensives.

And so far as being united about political and military objectives, which objectives were these? All had repeatedly said in one way or another that the Reich did not need or want more non-Germans, implying that they had no interest in conquest. (The only significant populations of German-speakers outside the Reich were in Austria-Hungary.) Had they already covertly adopted Riezler's "September Programme"? Fischer and his various followers have insisted that they had, but never have been able to find any actual evidence.

It seems to me that as IR specialists often are prone to, Lieber has fallen victim to confirmation bias. We need not join him.

Will O'Neil
William D. O'Neil
The Plan That Broke the World
http://whatweretheythinking.williamdone ... /Index.htm

User avatar
Attrition
Member
Posts: 4005
Joined: 29 Oct 2008, 23:53
Location: England

Re: "Germany was the only responsible for WW1"

#867

Post by Attrition » 07 May 2014, 19:17

~~~~~All had repeatedly said in one way or another that the Reich did not need or want more non-Germans~~~~~

Weltpolitik? There were a few Namibians left alive who might raise a sceptical eyebrow at such claims.


~~~~~It seems to me that as IR specialists often are prone to, Lieber has fallen victim to confirmation bias. We need not join him.~~~~~

Maybe we already have?

My views on all this are formative rather than summative, which is why I think that the possibility that the German campaign of 1914 was a success, remains under-explored.

woneil
Member
Posts: 115
Joined: 07 Jun 2006, 04:40
Location: Near Washington, DC

Re: "Germany was the only responsible for WW1"

#868

Post by woneil » 07 May 2014, 19:26

Attrition wrote:My views on all this are formative rather than summative, which is why I think that the possibility that the German campaign of 1914 was a success, remains under-explored.
I think I must not be understanding your point that the German campaign of 1914 was a success, which you have now repeated several times. What did it succeed in accomplishing that you believe the German high command desired? What is your evidence?

Will O'Neil
William D. O'Neil
The Plan That Broke the World
http://whatweretheythinking.williamdone ... /Index.htm

ljadw
Member
Posts: 15588
Joined: 13 Jul 2009, 18:50

Re: "Germany was the only responsible for WW1"

#869

Post by ljadw » 07 May 2014, 19:43

Reply on post 866:
It is not so that France had a day's advantage on speed of mobilization: "Geschichte der Mobilmachung in Deutschland" 1871-1918:Die französische Armee benötigte nach ihrer Mobilmachungsplannung 3/5 Tage mehr als die deutsche .
My rough translation : following her mobilizationplanning,France needed 3/5 days more than Germany .
Other point :France ordered the mobilization on 1 august 1914 at 4 PM,starting on sunday 2 august . On the morning of 2 august,Germany had already occupied Luxemburg,which was the start of the German attack in the West .

France ordered the mobilization AFTER (IMHO because) the threatening visit from the German ambassador .When Germany declared war on France,the French mobilization was NOT mentioned as a reason,which means that the Germans were not afraid of France . Besides,it was excluded (totally) that in august 1914,France would declare war on Germany to help Russia : for a DOW,unanimity was needed,and reality was that the majority of French parliament was hostile to the Czar ,to the 3 years military service,and that a big part was even hostile to the existance of the army as such .

Later more .

ljadw
Member
Posts: 15588
Joined: 13 Jul 2009, 18:50

Re: "Germany was the only responsible for WW1"

#870

Post by ljadw » 07 May 2014, 20:37

More 8-)

If we are looking at what happened and not speculating at what could/should happen,than becomes everything very clear and it is obvious that Fischer was very moderate.

After Sarajevo,the Austrian Emperor told the Kaiser the following :

1) We must attack Serbia
2) There is no proof that Serbia was responsible
3)There is no unanimity to attack Serbia(which meant : it is impossible to attack Serbia)

Why was FJ writing this letter to the Kaiser ? To ask him to take the decision.

A logical answer from the Kaiser would be : it is not my business,and,if you attack Serbia,don't expect my help .

But,what did the Kaiser ? He said Urbi et Orbi : it's now or never ( for Germany) and he became frustrated,irritated,angry when A/H was delaying the whole thing : it took 14 days of a lot of German pressure to convince Tisza,than,it took 14 days to write an ultimatum,and after the DOW,the chief war monger (Conrad) who had a month to prepare everything,said coolly : Now, I need 12 days to mobilize .It was very clear that nothing would happen .And,nothing happened after the DOW: Europe still was at peace,there only was a little shooting at Belgrade .And,Russia ? Russia was waiting,limiting herself to a partial mobilisation .
And,suddenly,what happened ? Germany,angry against the Austrian Faulenzer (good staff was difficult to find) took the decision to take the initiative and started WWI,by declaring war on Russia (for a false reason),to invade Belgium,France and Luxemburg(for false reasons).And,if I am adding that Bethmann had told the governor of the Alsace that he was not in the least interested in Sarajevo,than is it obvious that Germany had seen in Sarajevo a pretext to incite AH to start a war against Serbia,war,which,hoped Germany,would result in the big war that would give Germany the supremacy on the continent .

When AH failed to do what Germany ordered,Germany started the big war herself .

Post Reply

Return to “First World War”