"Germany was the only responsible for WW1"

Discussions on all aspects of the First World War not covered in the other sections. Hosted by Terry Duncan.
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ljadw
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Re: "Germany was the only responsible for WW1"

#946

Post by ljadw » 13 May 2014, 19:11

Again,I refer to the interview of J.Röhl in the Süddeutsche Zeitung from 5 march of this year with as title"Wie Deutschland in 1914 den Krieg plante" (an English translation is available) ,where Röhl is mentioning the statements from Tirpitz,Moltke,Waldersee,saying that Germany had planned and started the World War (Moltke in a letter to Colmar von der Goltz),that while the situation was good for Germany,one should not hesitate to start the war(Waldersee),that it was better for a big nation to fight for for the highest aim (world position) and possibly to die ,than to give up the future.

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Re: "Germany was the only responsible for WW1"

#947

Post by Baltasar » 13 May 2014, 19:22

Again, ldjaw is "citing" parts of an article which has been widely criticised as been one-sided and so inaccurate that it is the verge of being a mass of balant lies. Anybody who would actually be interested in a balanced view, so anybody other than ldjaw, can read the numerous comments on that article, in particular in the German version.


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Re: "Germany was the only responsible for WW1"

#948

Post by Terry Duncan » 13 May 2014, 19:24

Yes iirc Rohl supports the shared guilt idea, or at least always has previously, and does not blame Germany alone. And after 100 years if all that can be offered is one historian and a few quotes to support such an idea, do you not imagine that would be because it is not what the entire body of evidence supports?

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Re: "Germany was the only responsible for WW1"

#949

Post by ljadw » 13 May 2014, 20:41

The man who is called "almost a liar" has been used by C.Clark (apologist of Germany) as a source in Kaiser Wilhelm II Profiles in Power PP 247/249

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Re: "Germany was the only responsible for WW1"

#950

Post by Baltasar » 13 May 2014, 21:57

ljadw wrote:The man who is called "almost a liar" has been used by C.Clark (apologist of Germany) as a source in Kaiser Wilhelm II Profiles in Power PP 247/249
Which does proof? nothing. Anybody can take snipped of something and use it to his own ends, as you know.

Besides, the text you refer isn't any less heavily criticised if other articles of that guy are quoted elsewhere.

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Re: "Germany was the only responsible for WW1"

#951

Post by woneil » 14 May 2014, 01:12

Terry Duncan wrote:
Maybe we should best settle this by a vote on the original claim, that Germany alone is responsible? How about anyone still reading try to assign how much responsibility they credit each nation with? After that maybe we may see some fresh input?
On the basis that "where there's smoke there's fire" I would have to say that Belgium was responsible, since we see so much smoke here from the direction of Belgium. Smells rather as if it's coming from smouldering rubbish heaps — quite toxic rubbish.

Leaving that all aside, here's my scorecard, rubbish smoke notwithstanding:

First of all, no country started the war in the sense of freely and knowingly choosing a course of action that might reasonably have been expected to lead to a general European conflict. Russia came close to meeting this standard, but didn't fully do so and no other country came very close. This was a very different situation from conflicts such as the Second World War or America's attack on Iraq.

The Serbs
As I say in The Plan That Broke the World,
The Serbs were the Taliban of the day, impoverished, clannish, proudly ignorant, violent and fanatic. Most were peasant smallholders living not far above subsistence. Everywhere that Serbia’s rule spread was Serbianized. Those who could might pass for Serbs; otherwise the choice was to flee or be slaughtered.

The chief of intelligence for the Serbian General Staff was a violent and practiced terrorist, Dragutin Dimitrijević (1876–1917), widely known as Apis, “Bull.” He’d played a leading part in the 1903 regicide and coup that brought Serbia under a radical nationalist regime, and later in the brutal intimidation of non-Serbs living in the territories conquered in the 1912–13 Balkan Wars. Such credentials gave him great stature in Belgrade.

In his spare time Apis founded and directed a secret organization, “Union or Death!”, more usually known as the “Black Hand.” This was based on the principle that all places everywhere that had any substantial population of Serbs—or people who could by some stretch of the imagination be counted as Serbs, or compelled to be-come Serbs, or be “cleansed” in order to be replaced by Serbs—belonged by right under Serbian rule, that it was Serbia’s holy mission to bring them the benefits of her backwardness and misgovernance regardless of what they might want and by whatever means necessary.
The utter, uncaring fecklessness of the Serbs was bound to cause a lot of trouble beyond their borders if allowed to run unchecked. It's worth noting that the Serbs were among the very few people who got what they wanted out of the war: Yugoslavia. Naturally they made a mess of it.

The Hungarians
The Hungarians weakened and destabilized the Dual Monarchy to the point where it could no longer protect itself against even a foe like the Serbs. They too got what they wanted, some of them: independence. Much good it's done them.

The Austrians
The Austrians allowed Hungary to drag down the empire and fooled themselves regarding how much strength it had left. While the assassination of the heir by terrorists with Serbian state backing certainly gave them ample casus belli in a legal sense, they were highly unwise in failing to match their policy to their actual resources. Their whole policy was one of unexampled folly.

The Russians
As I say, the Russian leadership came closest to deliberately starting a general European conflict absent any pressing need. Since Vienna had already declared that it would not annex or permanently occupy any Serbian territory, St. Petersburg could perfectly well have let them try to give the Serbs a drubbing without any material loss. Instead, the Russians, based on a very unrealistic assessment of their own strength, decided to back Belgrade come what may, purely for reasons of prestige. They feared that they would suffer harmful loss of standing if they shrank from war. It was really a case of what Bismarck derided as suicide for fear of death.

The French
It was France that made it a European war by encouraging her Russian ally in a thoroughly irresponsible policy. How blind Poincaré must have been to be so unable to see who he was dealing with in his fateful visit to St. Petersburg. To have so abused his power to bind the fate of his nation to the whims of the Russian imperialists was a crime against the Republic.

The Germans
The Germans followed their Austrian cousins in betting va banque on a policy founded in unmitigated folly. I go into this in some detail in The Plan That Broke the World and lack space to repeat it all here. I also show how thoroughly unnecessary it all was — Germany had good options for achieving her strategic objectives at modest cost and with low risk, had she chosen to take them.

The Belgians
Although usually given a free pass, the Belgians were culpable in that they created what is known in legal terms as an attractive nuisance. It was no secret that they occupied an attractive route for conquest — that had been evident for millennia. They were the richest people in Europe and could well have afforded to make their territory much less inviting. The chose to pinch pennies and lost their wealth as a result — the country has never again been as wealthy in relative terms as it was in 1913.

The British
The British depended for their security on a European balance of power, yet failed to take reasonable care to support and strengthen it. They became much too fixated not only on the Empire but on some of its most unprofitable bits, and failed to pay attention to what was going on in their back yard in time to have done anything constructive about it. And the pugnacious response of men like Churchill to German folly ill served their country.

The Americans
The Americans were late to recognize that the Atlantic had shrunk to a point that made Europe very important to their own security. Like the British they failed to maintain awareness and take action early.

The Italians
We should not forget that Italy's wildly ill-advised Libyan adventure was the ultimate trigger for the Balkan wars that led to European War. While the Italians wanted to be a Great Power they very notably failed to act like one; they never raised a finger to aid in stabilizing the European situation. Their policies were purely and very narrowly self-interested from start to finish.

Overall, there was plenty of blame to go around. Germany does bear a lot of responsibility (more for how the war was conducted than for the war itself) but was far from alone.

Will O'Neil
William D. O'Neil
The Plan That Broke the World
http://whatweretheythinking.williamdone ... /Index.htm

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Re: "Germany was the only responsible for WW1"

#952

Post by ljadw » 14 May 2014, 06:19

The Belgians were the richest people in Europe : :P :P :P :

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Re: "Germany was the only responsible for WW1"

#953

Post by woneil » 14 May 2014, 07:11

For the benefit of those who are not knowledgable regarding the facts of economic history, a widely-used standard reference regarding the economies of Europe is the so-called Maddison Project Database, which can be accessed via http://www.ggdc.net/maddison/maddison-project/home.htm. According to this, in 1913 the per-capita GDP of the major nations that became involved in WW I, expressed in 1990 international dollars, was as follows:
  • Austria = $3,465
    Belgium = $4,220
    France = $3,485
    Germany = $3,468
    Russia = $1,414
    UK = $4,921
The Maddison Project data are based on today's boundaries.

My personal preference for these purposes (and the source I relied upon in writing The Plan That Broke the World) is Broadberry, Stephen and Alexander Klein, “Aggregate and Per Capita GDP in Europe, 1870-2000: Continental, Regional and National Data With Changing Boundaries,” Scandinavian Economic History Review 60, No. 1 (Mar 2012): 79-107. According to their reckoning, the 1913 per-capita GDPs were:
  • Austria-Hungary = $2,576
    Belgium = $4,263
    France = $3,245
    Germany = $4,181
    Italy = $2,721
    Russia = $1,551
    Serbia = $1,060
    UK = $5,030
Regardless of source, Belgium comes out as the richest of the Continental European participants. And in fact, Belgian dominance is even more marked in earlier decades.

Will O'Neil
William D. O'Neil
The Plan That Broke the World
http://whatweretheythinking.williamdone ... /Index.htm

ljadw
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Re: "Germany was the only responsible for WW1"

#954

Post by ljadw » 14 May 2014, 09:03

1)"The Belgians" do not exist : Baron Empain was rich,and the majority of the population was very poor

2)GDP can not be used to measure the riches of the population of a country

3)Following the Belgian economist Fernand Baudhuin,the national wealth of Belgium in 1913 was 51 billion francs and per capita 6700 francs,while in France it was 7200 francs per capita

4) And,than,one must also measure and use the purchasing-power .

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Re: "Germany was the only responsible for WW1"

#955

Post by South » 14 May 2014, 10:24

Good morning Woneil / Will,

Although a tangent, it's very much "on topic" and pertinent to this thread;...

Re: "The Americans were late to recognize that the Atlantic had shrunk...failed to maintain awareness and take action early.";

The awareness was present and exercised. Some actions were taken.

It was the US Navy's Alfred Mahan (1840-1914), author of "The Influence of Sea Power Upon History, 1660-1783" (1890) and "The Influence of Sea Power Upon the French Revolution and Empire, 1793-1812" (1892), who provided the awareness. His writings and teaching stimulated US naval expansion. Early on, the Atlantic was recognized as becomming a pond.

A specific, major US action was to get a canal dug through Nicaragua via a new nation, Panama. Besides the economic benefits to the US, the pending Canal Zone was both a US military choke point and observation tower to monitor Europe.

Now, I do conceed US security efforts in re awareness and actions were nominal compared to the actual security requirements but this was the restricting US domestic political dynamics and not the subject matter.

Warm regards,

Bob

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Re: "Germany was the only responsible for WW1"

#956

Post by Attrition » 14 May 2014, 14:06

~~~~~The Belgians: Although usually given a free pass, the Belgians were culpable in that they created what is known in legal terms as an attractive nuisance. It was no secret that they occupied an attractive route for conquest — that had been evident for millennia. They were the richest people in Europe and could well have afforded to make their territory much less inviting. The chose to pinch pennies and lost their wealth as a result — the country has never again been as wealthy in relative terms as it was in 1913.~~~~~

The Belgian state which ran Congo only marginally less ruthlessly than Leopold? People who could make the Generalgouvernment in occupied Poland in the 40s look like a birthday present aren't Ruritanians.

~~~~~The British: The British depended for their security on a European balance of power, yet failed to take reasonable care to support and strengthen it. They became much too fixated not only on the Empire but on some of its most unprofitable bits, and failed to pay attention to what was going on in their back yard in time to have done anything constructive about it. And the pugnacious response of men like Churchill to German folly ill served their country.~~~~~

The British sold out the "natives" in places like Canada, Australia and South Africa to proto-fascists like the Boer and the ex-British settlers, so as to concentrate on Europe diplomatically and militarily. They sub-contracted the Far East to Japan and central Asia to an informal condominium with the Russians. The only thing the rulers of Britain didn't do to prepare for war with Germany was admit it openly.

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Re: "Germany was the only responsible for WW1"

#957

Post by ljadw » 14 May 2014, 16:48

Attrition wrote:~~~~~The Belgians: Although usually given a free pass, the Belgians were culpable in that they created what is known in legal terms as an attractive nuisance. It was no secret that they occupied an attractive route for conquest — that had been evident for millennia. They were the richest people in Europe and could well have afforded to make their territory much less inviting. The chose to pinch pennies and lost their wealth as a result — the country has never again been as wealthy in relative terms as it was in 1913.~~~~~

The Belgian state which ran Congo only marginally less ruthlessly than Leopold? People who could make the Generalgouvernment in occupied Poland in the 40s look like a birthday present aren't Ruritanians.
I see : maybe you could give us the locations of the Congolese Auschwitz,Treblinka and Majdanek,and some pictures of the getto of Leopoldville ?


The fact is that compared to a lot of other colonies,the Belgians had not to be ashamed for what they did in Congo.


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Re: "Germany was the only responsible for WW1"

#959

Post by Terry Duncan » 14 May 2014, 18:57

I don't think there is too much doubt that a lot to be ashamed of did take place in the Belgian Congo, a lot happened in many colonial areas under other powers but that hardly excuses the Belgian rulers from their activities. I would certainly say that the Belgian Congo atrocities ranked in the worst section of colonial behavior, certainly given the age when it took place, and was far from the best. It is getting rather off topic though.

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Re: "Germany was the only responsible for WW1"

#960

Post by ljadw » 14 May 2014, 20:23


Attrition wrote about Belgian Congo,not about the Congo Free State,and said that the situation in Belgian Congo(1909-1960) was worse than in occupied Poland in WWII.

The link mentioned up here is about the Congo Free State (1885-1909).The same for the other two links .

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