Was the US entry into WWI a mistake?

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ljadw
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Re: Was the US entry into WWI a mistake?

#76

Post by ljadw » 12 Nov 2014, 09:37

jluetjen wrote:
Given the standards of the time, I'm not sure that I could fault Austria for invading Serbia after the Crown Prince was killed.
1)A lot of people will disagree with you

2)Besides,your statement is not correct : Austria invaded Serbia after the German DOW on Russia.

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Don71
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Re: Was the US entry into WWI a mistake?

#77

Post by Don71 » 13 Nov 2014, 03:22

Austria declared war to Serbia at 28. July 1914!

As always your history is different from the real history, or do you claim Germany DOW Russia at 28. July 1914?


glenn239
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Re: Was the US entry into WWI a mistake?

#78

Post by glenn239 » 13 Nov 2014, 15:43

I'm not sure that I could fault Austria for invading Serbia after the Crown Prince was killed.
The German war guilt hypothesis was founded on the presumption that Bethmann’s attempts for a localized Austria-Serbian conflict were somehow abhorrent to the dignity of the Entente. This viewpoint is entirely correct, save of course for the rather inconvienient fact that the United States (Spain), Britain (Boers), Italy (Ottomans), Ottomans (Balkans), Russians (Japanese), Japanese (Chinese) and French (annexing independent Morocco) had all themselves fought localized conflicts or aggressively annexed within the past 15 years. Apparently, the booth that issues the coupons for localised conflicts closed its doors when it saw Austria coming.

ljadw
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Re: Was the US entry into WWI a mistake?

#79

Post by ljadw » 13 Nov 2014, 17:01

Don71 wrote:Austria declared war to Serbia at 28. July 1914!

As always your history is different from the real history, or do you claim Germany DOW Russia at 28. July 1914?

I see :still having problems with the king's English :P

I replied to Jluetjen who said that AH invaded Serbia after the murder of the Crownprince;Jluetjen was not talking about an Austrian DOW. :wink:

The Austrian invasion of Serbia started on 10/11 august 1914,after the German DOW on Russia and almost 14 days after its DOW.
Attentive readers will remember that the Austrian DOW on Serbia was not resulting in a Russian one .

Of course,it is a free country:you can claim that DOW =invasion, but I don't think that there will be more than 1 historian that will agree with you :maybe you also are claiming that when Britain declared war on Germany on 3 september 1939,it was invading Germany ?

ljadw
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Re: Was the US entry into WWI a mistake?

#80

Post by ljadw » 13 Nov 2014, 17:07

glenn239 wrote:
I'm not sure that I could fault Austria for invading Serbia after the Crown Prince was killed.
The German war guilt hypothesis was founded on the presumption that Bethmann’s attempts for a localized Austria-Serbian conflict were somehow abhorrent to the dignity of the Entente. This viewpoint is entirely correct, save of course for the rather inconvienient fact that the United States (Spain), Britain (Boers), Italy (Ottomans), Ottomans (Balkans), Russians (Japanese), Japanese (Chinese) and French (annexing independent Morocco) had all themselves fought localized conflicts or aggressively annexed within the past 15 years. Apparently, the booth that issues the coupons for localised conflicts closed its doors when it saw Austria coming.
Maybe you can give us the proofs that immediately after the Austrian DOW on Serbia,France and Russia declared war on Austria,or were planning to declare war on Austria ?

Other question :how many people in France could show Serbia on a map ? 1%? Of course not :lol: 1 on thousand ? Very optimistic.Maybe one on 10000 ? And even that would be a big exaggeration .

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Re: Was the US entry into WWI a mistake?

#81

Post by glenn239 » 13 Nov 2014, 21:58

ljadw wrote:
Maybe you can give us the proofs that immediately after the Austrian DOW on Serbia,France and Russia declared war on Austria,or were planning to declare war on Austria ?
The Russia mobilization at Austria was inimical to a localized conflict.

ljadw
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Re: Was the US entry into WWI a mistake?

#82

Post by ljadw » 13 Nov 2014, 23:14

That's your opinion,it was not the opinion of the Germans,neither of the Austrians : Germany/AH did not declare war when Russia mobilized on the border with AH.

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Terry Duncan
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Re: Was the US entry into WWI a mistake?

#83

Post by Terry Duncan » 14 Nov 2014, 01:52

glenn239 wrote:
ljadw wrote:
Maybe you can give us the proofs that immediately after the Austrian DOW on Serbia,France and Russia declared war on Austria,or were planning to declare war on Austria ?
The Russia mobilization at Austria was inimical to a localized conflict.
Why? A war of Austria verses Serbia and Russia is still localised to eastern Europe. Who decides exactly what constitutes 'localised' anyhow? It would seem what you are really saying is that Austria and Germany expected to be able to dictate to all the other powers, who had a right to be involved in a war they wished to initiate. Other powers also had their own policies and interests. Much the same would apply again in 1939, as Hitler would have been quite happy to 'localise' a war between Germany and Poland, but other powers decided it was against their interests to allow it to happen. The notion that one power says 'X is going to happen and nobody is allowed to do anything about it' and all the other powers bow down and agree is facile.

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jluetjen
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Re: Was the US entry into WWI a mistake?

#84

Post by jluetjen » 14 Nov 2014, 03:21

Graeme Sydney wrote:Firstly, irrational and emotional are not opposites but rather rational and emotional are different mental processes; ie an emotional response or a rational response. Irrational is faulty rational thought.
jluetjen wrote:- Was it irrational or merely an emotional reaction for the Poland to go to war against the Germans and Russians in September 1939?
The Polish response was neither...

Again America's response was neither....
Somehow you jumped a track. As my quote is quite clear about, I don't consider irrational and emotional as opposites. Your statement might make sense if you used the word "rational", so I'll grant you the typo. But even then, I don't think that I suggest that rational and emotional are opposites. Rather I think my choice of wording makes clear that I am using them to be complimentary, or possibly similar although not the same. (Rereading the passages a 4th or 5th time, I think the "disagreement" is a results of, and an example of one of the peculiar flexibilities of the English language. The same words could be interpreted differently depending on the context. A classic example is "Woman without her man is nothing". My apologies.)

As far as the next two examples, you seem to suggest that a country defending its territory or sovereignty is not going to war. I'm not sure that I agree with that. War is like ballroom dancing -- it takes two. In some cases the justification is pretty clear (Poland in September 1939), while in other cases less so (Russia going to war with Japan in August 1945).
The War Against Terror was not a conventional war with a conventional DofW with a Conventional nation state. The response with conventional forces was not the most a rational or wise response. Indeed the actual response was most mainly the Wounded Bull emotion.
You lost me. You seem to be equating a declaration of war (DOW) with War. A DOW is a legal document or action -- by this I mean a documentation excercise. War on the other hand is something else entirely. Was the American Revolution a war prior to 1776? Your logic would say "no". The 13 colonies were not a nation, and a declaration of war was not made until the Declaration of Independence essentially did this. I would argue that the American Revolution was a war prior to July 1776. Organized armies moved and battled, men died.

Graeme Sydney
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Re: Was the US entry into WWI a mistake?

#85

Post by Graeme Sydney » 14 Nov 2014, 09:27

jluetjen, what are you smoking? 8O

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Re: Was the US entry into WWI a mistake?

#86

Post by Germanicus Nero » 14 Nov 2014, 09:46

I'm sorry to burst in, but this thread has been on my mind for some time.

A German 'win' in WW1 might well have had less serious consequences for Europe.

A magnanimous Kaiser Wilhelm could have been virtually guaranteed to offer much softer peace terms. An exchange of provinces and a smaller indemnity, considering Germany would have retained her fleet and been able to carve out more colonies.

The Kaiser was a relative of the British monarchy, so easy terms for Great Britain would have assured their survival, nay, assured their prosperity.

France might have been the cheif loser, but a magnanimous Kaiser would surely have seen to it that the French had a place in Europe.

In Russia, with a monarchic restoration impossible after Ekaterinberg, Austria and Germany may have deployed troops to quell the revolution. The ethnic minorities would side with the Central Powers, ensuring an end to Moscovite domination. Considering what came out of Russia, thats a bloody good thing.

Serbia and the Balkans a feifdom of the Austro-Hungarian empire. Not necessarily a bad thing. Austro-Hungary may have been ramshackle, but she was also a polygot empire full of ethnicity. a few more minorities would have enriched the brew, paid of the Hapsburg's debts, and lead to general stability in a region known for an absence of it.

And finally, picture Corporal Adolf Hitler, a German citizen, sitting in a sunny armchair, farting from rich food, dabbing a spot of paint contentedly as he draws watercolours of local buildings. He has finally qualified in a provincial Univercity, and with a degree in fine art and a soldier's pension, he contentedly whiles away his remaining days, as far away from politics and dominating europe as anybody is ever likely to be.

And the best thing? Germany was known as a PROTECTOR of Jewish people in Eastern Europe during WW1. With no blame to place, we have a Second Reich that soldiers on, with no final solution, no racial purity catching German imaginations, and best of all.....

Bloody Heinrich Himmler wasting away farming his chickens, and getting more and more nostalgic for that military career that will never be. I like that one particularly. Up to his knees in chickenshit, Heinrich will be where he should have been to start with, to stay there, a nothing for the rest of his days.

Sid Guttridge
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Re: Was the US entry into WWI a mistake?

#87

Post by Sid Guttridge » 14 Nov 2014, 15:55

Hi GN,

Even better - continued US commitment leads to an outright conquest of Germany by the Allies in 1919, leaving no doubt as to Germany's defeat and therefore no room for self delusion on that score as practiced by Adolf Hitler and his like.

Liberal Democracy triumphs, no Hilter and no WWII - win, win, win!

Cheers,

Sid.

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jluetjen
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Re: Was the US entry into WWI a mistake?

#88

Post by jluetjen » 22 Nov 2014, 15:32

Graeme Sydney wrote:jluetjen, what are you smoking? 8O
Well -- that was a pretty useless response. :roll:

ljadw
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Re: Was the US entry into WWI a mistake?

#89

Post by ljadw » 22 Nov 2014, 15:41

Sid Guttridge wrote:Hi GN,

Even better - continued US commitment leads to an outright conquest of Germany by the Allies in 1919, leaving no doubt as to Germany's defeat and therefore no room for self delusion on that score as practiced by Adolf Hitler and his like.

Liberal Democracy triumphs, no Hilter and no WWII - win, win, win!

Cheers,

Sid.

One can argue that a conquest of Germany would have increaded German nationalism and have resulted in the German people supporting Hitler .

Other point is that no Hitler does not mean no WWII :the conditions for the putbreak of WWII were created at Versailles,and Hitler, ..he only used them .

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Re: Was the US entry into WWI a mistake?

#90

Post by monk2002uk » 29 Nov 2014, 07:33

Versailles exacerbated the conditions but did not create them. You can see the foundations in Ludendorff's writings. Significantly, he developed a number of methods for executing a National Socialist agenda and passed these on to Hitler. If not Hitler then Ludendorff would have sought out someone else or vice versa. Ludendorff was not driven primarily by what happened at Versailles. His preoccupation with Eastern expansion, military dictatorship, more systemic use of propaganda, etc came about during the war. Ludendorff's strong sense of betrayal, which arose during the war, was shared by many. US involvement would have facilitated a full military occupation, though it was not an absolute prerequisite. I am not sure that occupation per se would have further exacerbated the conditions for WW1. I suspect it would have depended on whether the likes of the Marshall Plan was implemented at the same time. Such a plan would have depended on American pressure and money I suspect. I doubt if the French would have had the appetite for it and the British wouldn't have had the money.

Robert

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