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Spain commission seeks removal of Gen Franco's remains

Discussions on all aspects of the Spanish Civil War including the Condor Legion, the Germans fighting for Franco in the Spanish Civil War.

Spain commission seeks removal of Gen Franco's remains

Postby Marcus Wendel on 29 Nov 2011 18:45

A commission set up by the Spanish government has recommended that the remains of General Francisco Franco should be exhumed.
The dictator's tomb is inside a Catholic basilica, at a politically divisive civil war memorial.
The site, near Madrid, has been a rallying point for the far right.
The commission said the remains of Gen Franco - who ruled between 1936 and his death in 1975 - should be handed over to his family for reburial.
The vast site, known as the Valley of the Fallen, contains mass graves with the remains of 34,000 people from both sides killed in Spain's 1936-1939 civil war.
It features a 150m cross that can be seen from miles around.
The report says Franco's remains should be removed because he did not die in the war.
The general died of natural causes at the age of 82.
The general commissioned the giant monument, which is carved into the side of a mountain, to commemorate his victory over the Republicans in the civil war.
Until a law was passed in 2007 banning demonstrations at the site, the Valley of the Fallen had seen crowds of supporters gather on the anniversary of Franco's death in November.
The commission was set up by Spain's outgoing socialist government.
Correspondents say the centre-right Popular Party, which will take office on 22 December after winning general elections earlier this month, is less likely to support the commission's conclusions.
A commission member said the report's release had been delayed until after the election because of the site's sensitivity.
General Franco's family has previously said they would be opposed to his body being removed from the Valley of the Fallen.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-15941687

/Marcus
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Re: Spain commission seeks removal of Gen Franco's remains

Postby von thoma on 30 Nov 2011 12:07

I live near the Valley,and is really a great monument.
Francisco Franco was buried in this place 36 years,and and nobody bothered.
They must let the dead rest in peace,and not open old wounds.
But no...they also talk about wish to demolish the Cross...!
" The right to believe is the right of those who don't know "
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Re: Spain commission seeks removal of Gen Franco's remains

Postby paulrward on 03 Dec 2011 04:35

Hello All;

Sounds like the Spanish Government has decided it is time to take out the garbage.


Respectfully;

Paul R. Ward
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Re: Spain commission seeks removal of Gen Franco's remains

Postby Ironmachine on 03 Dec 2011 07:13

The removal of Franco's body from the Valle de los Caídos is not a decision that can be taken by the government.
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Re: Spain commission seeks removal of Gen Franco's remains

Postby paulrward on 07 Dec 2011 04:25

"The removal of Franco's body from the Valle de los Caídos is not a decision that can be taken by the government."



Hello, All:

Nonsense. All the Government of Spain need do is find an appropriate spot for the bodies of Primo De Rivera and Franco. As I am not aware of that there are any animal cemetaries in Spain, my best suggestions would be a Toxic Waste Dump, an abandoned Coal Tip, or perhaps an automobile tire-burning facility.

Respectfully;

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Re: Spain commission seeks removal of Gen Franco's remains

Postby Ironmachine on 07 Dec 2011 08:17

paulrward wrote:
Ironmachine wrote:The removal of Franco's body from the Valle de los Caídos is not a decision that can be taken by the government

Nonsense.

As I suspected, you did not even bother to have a look at the link that Markus provided. It is clearly explained there, though Marcus did not quote that part:
And as the grave is within the basilica, exhumation would require permission from the Catholic Church.

Simply put, the government can not exhumate the corpse as the Church has full jurisdiction over the interior of the Basilica. And this was well know, there was no need to set up a commission to study the case. If the government had really decided "to take out the garbage", they could have tried to reach an agreement with the Catholic Church about the matter, or they could have tried to change the law. They did have the time and the capacity to do it, instead of setting up a commission that could take no actions at all.

paulrward wrote:All the Government of Spain need do is find an appropriate spot for the bodies of Primo De Rivera and Franco.

It should be noted that the commission said that Franco's body is the only one that should be removed, adding explicitly that Primo de Rivera's corpse should remain there (though relocated within the basilica to be on an equal basis with others buried there instead of occupying a prominent place). And in this point there was complete unanimity of all the members of the commission.

paulrward wrote:As I am not aware of that there are any animal cemetaries in Spain, my best suggestions would be a Toxic Waste Dump, an abandoned Coal Tip, or perhaps an automobile tire-burning facility.

The commission recommended that Franco's body should be transferred to a place deemed "worthy and appropriate". I don't think they were considering your options. :lol:
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Re: Spain commission seeks removal of Gen Franco's remains

Postby Parisien on 07 Dec 2011 19:08

The Socialists are OUT now and the new government has more important task than to remove General Franco from his tomb !
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Re: Spain commission seeks removal of Gen Franco's remains

Postby JamesL on 07 Dec 2011 21:05

I visited The Valley of the Fallen in 2002. It is a very beautiful and reverential place.

If the remains were moved without the permission of the family and the Catholic Church, I would think that this would violate the Spanish Constitution and the Universal Declaration of Human Rights. Religious freedoms would be trampled.

Specifically,
Spanish Constitution (English version)
http://www.senado.es/constitu_i/indices/consti_ing.pdf

Preamble –
Protect all Spaniards and peoples of Spain in the exercise of human rights, of their culture and traditions, languages and institutions.

PART I
Fundamental Rights and Duties
Section 10
(2) Provisions relating to the fundamental rights and liberties recognized by the Constitution shall be construed in conformity with the Universal Declaration of Human Rights and international treaties and agreements thereon ratified by Spain.

Section 16
(1) Freedom of ideology, religion and worship of individuals and communities is guaranteed, with no other restriction on their expression than may be necessary to maintain public order as protected by law.

(3) No religion shall have a state character. The public authorities shall take into account the religious beliefs of Spanish society and shall consequently maintain appropriate cooperation relations with the Catholic Church and other
confessions.

Section 18
(1) The right to honour, to personal and family privacy and to the own image is guaranteed.



Universal Declaration Of Human Rights
http://www.un.org/en/documents/udhr/index.shtml

Article 18.
Everyone has the right to freedom of thought, conscience and religion; this right includes freedom to change his religion or belief, and freedom, either alone or in community with others and in public or private, to manifest his religion or belief in teaching, practice, worship and observance.
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Re: Spain commission seeks removal of Gen Franco's remains

Postby Ironmachine on 08 Dec 2011 07:50

Well, I am no expert in this area so what follows is just my opinion, but...
I think this has nothing to do with of freedom of religion or worship. It just a consequence of the 1978 Concordat
http://www.boe.es/boe/dias/1979/12/15/p ... -28782.pdf
which states that "places of worship are guaranteed immunity under the laws". In common terms, this means that government agents can not enter places of worship without permission of the ecclesiastical authority.
Regards.
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Re: Spain commission seeks removal of Gen Franco's remains

Postby Adler250 on 30 May 2012 02:39

In the last national elections in Spain (november 2011) the socialist government was defeated by the conservative party, wich is against the removal or destruction of historical landmarks.

This means that the new government will not continue with this kind of politically motivated attempts against History.
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Re: Spain commission seeks removal of Gen Franco's remains

Postby Ironmachine on 30 May 2012 07:14

In the last national elections in Spain (november 2011) the socialist government was defeated by the conservative party, wich is against the removal or destruction of historical landmarks.

The conservative party may be against the removal or destruction of "historical landmarks" when Franco or the nationalist side of the SCW is involved, but certainly they have much less interest (or none at all) in other "historical landmarks". :lol:
On the other hand, I can't see how removing Franco's remains from the Valle de los Caídos can be considered a "destruction of historical landmarks".
Regards.
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Re: Spain commission seeks removal of Gen Franco's remains

Postby HFK on 30 May 2012 13:40

Hello,
My thoughts on this topic are that the socialists have a 2-step plane here. Step 1 is the removal of Gen, Franco's body.
Step 2 is more complicated. Their thoughts are that since there is no body in the tomb or memorial, why not destroy the entire memorial, since it now has no purpose. The plan is to gradually make the Spanish people forget one of the greatest Spaniards of all time, a man who sdaved Spain from Communism.
Regards, Harry
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Re: Spain commission seeks removal of Gen Franco's remains

Postby Ironmachine on 30 May 2012 15:59

Unfortunately, your plan seems somewhat fantastic, given that the premise for your step 2 is false, as there are many more bodys in the Valle, not only Franco. Anyway, the commission never talked about destroying the Valled de los Caidos, but about using it to create a "museum" about the SCW and the Francoist regime. Now, I'm quite sure that if made by the Socialists, that "museum" would not be intended to sing Franco's praises, but that's another matter.

one of the greatest Spaniards of all time, a man who saved Spain from Communism.

OMG :roll:
Yep, he saved us from Communism once, and then he spent 40 years doing it... :lol:

PS: I don't think there is really a way to keep politics out of a thread such as this one, so perhaps it would be better if moderators just close it.
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Re: Spain commission seeks removal of Gen Franco's remains

Postby Leo Niehorster on 31 May 2012 08:08

As someone who visited and lived in Spain — initially as an ordinary tourist and later under the USAF umbrella — in the late 1950's and early 1960's, (and frequently visited since then,) I would be like to hear about the complete picture. Is there someplace that discusses Franco and the Franco era without degrading into politics, name calling, and worse? I, for one, would be interested in a reasonably balanced short history, if there is such a thing. Any recommendations?

Leo
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Re: Spain commission seeks removal of Gen Franco's remains

Postby Alejandro_ on 31 May 2012 09:16

The commission recommended that Franco's body should be transferred to a place deemed "worthy and appropriate". I don't think they were considering your options


In the link below it is possible to find the commision's report. The reason given for the removal of Franco's boday was that he did not die during the SCW, and Valle de los Caidos is a burial place for those who did. This is why Primo de Rivera's should stay, but his tomb should be similar to the others.

http://estaticos.elmundo.es/documentos/ ... _valle.pdf

Now, it was not Franco's idea to be buried in Valle de los Caidos (his wife is buried at El Pardo's palace). The idea was suggested by Carlos Navarro government and approved by the King. This is why the tomb itself is an "awkard" place within the church.

A while ago I wrote an article on mi blog, you can see the original document signed by the King authorising the burial at Valle de los Caidos:

http://alejandro-8.blogspot.com/2011/12 ... aidos.html

Is there someplace that discusses Franco and the Franco era without degrading into politics, name calling, and worse? I, for one, would be interested in a reasonably balanced short history, if there is such a thing. Any recommendations?


Sadly I cannot think of any, and it gets worst with time. You will have about 10 seconds before you get called communist, fascists or whatever.
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