Distribution of arms at outbreak of civil war

Discussions on all aspects of the Spanish Civil War including the Condor Legion, the Germans fighting for Franco in the Spanish Civil War.
Spearfish
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Distribution of arms at outbreak of civil war

#1

Post by Spearfish » 27 Jul 2014, 11:19

Can anyone provide me with figures on the distribution of arms from the pre-war Spanish Army to the two sides circa July/August 1936?
I am interested in the numbers of rifles, automatic rifles (light machineguns), machineguns, mortars and mobile (75mm-155mm) artillery available to each side and, with regard to the Republican side, how many of each were in the three Biscay states?
With regard to artillery were the French 155mm howitzers supplied to pre-war Spain as a gift after World War I or were they sold as a commercial agreement?
Finally, does anyone know how many guns did the Nationalists capture to the end of 1936?
Regards
Spearfish

Felix C
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Re: Distribution of arms at outbreak of civil war

#2

Post by Felix C » 28 Jul 2014, 01:57

Some info in this thread with links to sources
http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic. ... 2&t=200021


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Ironmachine
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Re: Distribution of arms at outbreak of civil war

#3

Post by Ironmachine » 28 Jul 2014, 08:41

Spearfish wrote:With regard to artillery were the French 155mm howitzers supplied to pre-war Spain as a gift after World War I or were they sold as a commercial agreement?
The Obús Schneider de 155/13, modelo 1917 was built under licence in Spain (in Trubia), although AFAIK a few were bought directly in 1918.

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Ironmachine
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Re: Distribution of arms at outbreak of civil war

#4

Post by Ironmachine » 28 Jul 2014, 17:23

Some approximate figures taken from Atlas ilustrado de las armas y uniformes de la Guerra Civil by Lucas Molina Franco and José María Manrique García.

For light weapons:
01.jpg
01.jpg (23.17 KiB) Viewed 1522 times
For artillery (field, mountain, anti-aircraft and infantry guns , models in service):
02.jpg
02.jpg (59.3 KiB) Viewed 1522 times

Spearfish
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Re: Distribution of arms at outbreak of civil war

#5

Post by Spearfish » 30 Jul 2014, 09:12

Gentlemen
Very many thanks for the information.
One last query. Is there any information on the weapons holdings of the Biscay states (Asturias, Santander and the Basques?

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Ironmachine
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Re: Distribution of arms at outbreak of civil war

#6

Post by Ironmachine » 30 Jul 2014, 13:52

These are not "Biscay states", but provinces and regions of the north of Spain. Biscay is just one province of the Basque Country.
I have no such data for geographical areas. An approximate figure, however, could be reached considering the military and police units present in those provinces and their loyalties at the beginning of the war.

Spearfish
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Re: Distribution of arms at outbreak of civil war

#7

Post by Spearfish » 31 Jul 2014, 09:20

Ironmachine
As always thank you for all your help.
I sincerely apologise if I might have offended you by using my own 'shorthand' reference for the Republican enclave on the Bay of Biscay as the 'Biscay states'.

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Ironmachine
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Re: Distribution of arms at outbreak of civil war

#8

Post by Ironmachine » 31 Jul 2014, 13:33

No need to apologise , there was no offense at all. It was simply a clarification that may be useful for you, because I live in one of those provinces and the first time you mentioned the "three Biscay states" I didn't understand what you were meaning; I thought you were asking about the three provinces of the Basque Country, and even that was not fully clear, but I never considered that you were including Asturias and Santander in your query.
Regards.

sandeepmukherjee196
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Re: Distribution of arms at outbreak of civil war

#9

Post by sandeepmukherjee196 » 06 Nov 2014, 08:39

Hi friends.. does anyone know that Herman Goering facilitated the supply of german arms to the republican side during the spanish civil war ( in '37 - 38)? He was at that time virtually controlling Rheinmetall-Borsig. apparently the material was supplied through Greece ( showing greek end use); further reshipped ostensibly for Mexico!

imagine! these arms were used against the condor legion by the republicans..they obviously would have caused german casualties!
ref : "H Elliniki polemiki viomihania prosferetai stous Nazi (Greek Military Industry ends up in Nazi hands)" article in the Imerisia Newspaper, December 15, 2007
ciao
Sandeep

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Ironmachine
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Re: Distribution of arms at outbreak of civil war

#10

Post by Ironmachine » 06 Nov 2014, 09:47

sandeepmukherjee196 wrote:imagine! these arms were used against the condor legion by the republicans..they obviously would have caused german casualties!
Hardly. The Condor Legion had just about 300 dead during the SCW, and most of them were lost in air actions. Only if the Republic was receiving anti-aircraft guns from Greece (and that was not the case) could any significant number of German casualties be related with this incident.
The weapons coming from Greece for the Republic in which Goering was involved were Mauser rifles and its ammunition. From Greece also came AFAIK some machine-guns and field artillery guns of German origin, but these were WWI-vintage weapons and is doubtful that Goering was directly involved with them. Anyway, as Legion Condor's men involvement in ground combat was very, very limited, the German casualties that could have been "caused" by Goering are at best anecdotical.

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Re: Distribution of arms at outbreak of civil war

#11

Post by sandeepmukherjee196 » 06 Nov 2014, 15:38

Hi ..Ironman..
I believe Gen Ritter Von Thoma claimed that he was personally involved in 192 panzer actions on the ground! And PZ I 's were shot up plenty by the republicans..not all of them were manned by spanish crew..so condor legion participation on the ground may not have been massive.. but they saw some action for sure..and took some casualties too ..
ciao
sandeep

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Ironmachine
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Re: Distribution of arms at outbreak of civil war

#12

Post by Ironmachine » 06 Nov 2014, 19:06

Yes, they saw some action in ground combat, but anyway the number of casualties suffered by the Condor Legion in ground combat was almost negligible.
sandeepmukherjee196 wrote:And PZ I 's were shot up plenty by the republicans..not all of them were manned by spanish crew
The crews were indeed mostly Spanish.
sandeepmukherjee196 wrote:I believe Gen Ritter Von Thoma claimed that he was personally involved in 192 panzer actions on the ground!
IIRC, he said that when interviewed by B.H. Liddell Hart for The Other Side of the Hill. I would take that with a grain of salt. Considering that (again IIRC) he claimed somethink like having took part in only 24 tank battles between Poland and Africa, I wonder about what he considered a tank action in the SCW. Anyway, he was not a casualty from those German weapons in Republican hands...

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Re: Distribution of arms at outbreak of civil war

#13

Post by sandeepmukherjee196 » 09 Nov 2014, 10:56

Dear Ironmachine,

Ritter Von Thoma was in a hands-on combat trainer, consultant role in the SCW. However he fought in Poland, Russia and Africa in command functions. His personal sleeves-rolled-up fighting role would obviously have reduced over the years. I am not surprised that he had to demonstrate from the front with panzer units, with the rookie nationalist forces.. It may or may not have been 192 tank battles.. but thats not the point .. is it?

Ciao

Sandeep

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Ironmachine
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Re: Distribution of arms at outbreak of civil war

#14

Post by Ironmachine » 09 Nov 2014, 18:38

No, the point seems to be Condor Legion casualties caused by German weapons provided by Goering to the Republicans. Well, 122 Panzer I tanks arrived to Spain during the SCW, and at the end of the war there were 84 still operational (by the way, this is a 69% survival rate, so much for the that is "PZ I 's were shot up plenty by the republicans"). Even if all the 38 Panzer I tank lost were destroyed in combat (a big "if"), if they were crewed only by Germans (not even remotely true), if all the crew members became casualties (another big "if"), and if they became casualties to German Mauser rifles (very big "if"), which AFAIK were the only German weapons coming from Greece in which Goering could have been a part, that would amount to a máximum of 76 German casualties; and as I have noted, this is not even remotely possible. So yes, German casualties caused by German weapons provided by Goering to the Republicans would have been negligible.
After all, von Thoma (which by the way has no less command function in the SCW than in Poland, as in Spain he was not just a trainer but the commander of Group "Imker") supposedly took part in 192 tank battles in Spain, and he didn't became a casualty.
Then, the whole "Herman Goering facilitated the supply of german arms to the republican side during the spanish civil war ( in '37 - 38)" claim is questionable. AFAIK, Goering at most facilitated the supply of German Mauser rifles to Greece for the Greek Army. It was in Greece where those weapons were diverted to the Spanish Republicans, and I haven't seen any proof that Goering had any involvement in this part of the operation.

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Re: Distribution of arms at outbreak of civil war

#15

Post by Sid Guttridge » 10 Nov 2014, 14:36

Hi sandeepmukherjee196,

The story about Goering facilitating the supply of German weapons to the Spanish Republicans looks inherently improbable. It seems more likely that, if the Republicans did receive German weaponry, third parties diverted it from other end users.

Cheers,

Sid.

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