Axis History Forum

This is an apolitical forum for discussions on the Axis nations and related topics hosted by Marcus Wendel's Axis History Factbook in cooperation with Michael Miller's Axis Biographical Research, Christoph Awender's WW2 day by dayand Christian Ankerstjerne’s Panzerworld.

Skip to content

If you found the forum useful please consider supporting us. You can also support us by buying books through the AHF Bookstore.

The J./ 88 of the Legion Condor (1936-39).

Discussions on all aspects of the Spanish Civil War including the Condor Legion, the Germans fighting for Franco in the Spanish Civil War.

The J./ 88 of the Legion Condor (1936-39).

Postby tigre on 30 Jun 2012 15:18

Hello to all :D; just a brief summary here..................

Structure and Emblems of the J./ 88 in Spain.

Structure of the J./88

Commanders:
Major Hubertus v. Merhart (03.11.1936 - 18.07.1937)
Major Gotthard Handrick (18.07.1937 - 10.09.1938)
Hauptmann Walter Grabmann (10.09.1938 bis Ende)
Brustelin foreseen as next CO.

1. Staffel: Emblems "Marabu", He 51 / "Holzauge", Bf 109
Hauptmann Werner Palm (03.11.1936 - 06.04.1937)
Hauptmann Harro Harder (06.04.1937 - 18.12.1937)
Hauptmann Wolfgang Schellmann (19.12.1937 - 02.09.1938)
Hauptmann Siebelt Reents (02.09.1938 bis Ende)

Image

Image

2. Staffel: "Zylinder" (top Hat)
Hauptmann Siegfried Lehmann (03.11.1936 - 19.03.1937)
Hauptmann Günther Lützow (19.03.1937 - 06.09.1937)
Hauptmann Joachim Schlichting (06.09.1937 - 28.05.1938)
Oberleutnant Alfred v. Lojewski (01.11.1938 to the end)

Image

Image

3. Staffel: "Micky-Maus" (Mickey mouse), He 51and Bf 109

Oberleutnant Jürgen Roth (03.11.1936 - April 1937)
Oberleutnant Douglas Pitcairn (April 1937 - 26.07.1937)
Oberleutnant Adolf Galland (27.07.1937 - 24.05.1938)
Hauptmann Werner Mölders (24.05.1938 - 05.12.1938)
Oberleutnant Hubertus v. Bonin (05.12.1938 to the end)

Image

Image

4. Staffel: "Pik As"
Oberleutnant Kraft Eberhardt (06.08.1936 - 13.11.1936)
Hauptmann Herwig Knüppel (13.11.1936 - 01.03.1937)
Oberleutnant Walter Kienzle (01.03.1937 - März 1937 / dissolved)

4. Staffel (new):
Oberleutnant Eberhard d'Elsa (02.11.1937 - 17.06.1938 / dissolved)

Sources: http://forum.panzer-archiv.de/viewtopic.php?t=8741&postdays=0&postorder=asc&highlight=legion+condor&start=0
http://www.zonamilitar.com.ar/foros/threads/el-club-del-bf-109.24000/
http://reibert.info/forum/showthread.php?t=30929

Cheers. Raúl M 8-).
You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post.
User avatar
tigre
Member
Argentina
 
Posts: 4607
Joined: 20 Mar 2005 11:48
Location: Argentina

Re: The J./ 88 of the Legion Condor (1936-39).

Postby tigre on 01 Jul 2012 22:30

Hello to all :D; the Bf 109D 6-56 was previously flown by Major Gotthard Handrick, the only change was the "h" in the circle. Later it was flown by Walter Grabmann, hence the "G" in the circle in the picture in the first post............

Here goes some pictures of the Bf 109 6-56 at the time Handrick was in command of J./ 88.....

Source: http://www.network54.com/Forum/473104/message/1215619581/Messerschmitt+BF-109.+Primeros+ejemplares+en+Espa%F1a+%5BParte+4%5D

Cheers. Raúl M 8-).
You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post.
Last edited by tigre on 02 Jul 2012 11:46, edited 1 time in total.
User avatar
tigre
Member
Argentina
 
Posts: 4607
Joined: 20 Mar 2005 11:48
Location: Argentina

Re: The J./ 88 of the Legion Condor (1936-39).

Postby Ironmachine on 02 Jul 2012 08:36

tigre wrote:And this marking?........................

It is not a Bf-109 of the Legion Condor, but a Bf-109 in Spanish service, very probably post-Civil War.
The 6-109 was a Bf 109E that has served previously with 3.J/88, piloted by Kurt Sochatzki.
This plane was destroyed in an accident in 1941.
Regards.
User avatar
Ironmachine
Member
Spain
 
Posts: 4390
Joined: 07 Jul 2005 10:50
Location: Spain

Re: The J./ 88 of the Legion Condor (1936-39).

Postby tigre on 02 Jul 2012 11:43

Hello to all :D; thank you very much Ironmachine, all clear now :wink:. Cheers. Raúl M 8-).
User avatar
tigre
Member
Argentina
 
Posts: 4607
Joined: 20 Mar 2005 11:48
Location: Argentina

Re: The J./ 88 of the Legion Condor (1936-39).

Postby Ironmachine on 03 Jul 2012 19:56

The same 6-109 while in service with the Legion Condor:
bf109e3.jpg

From http://www.me109.info/display.php?a=e&l=en&fid=6918
You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post.
User avatar
Ironmachine
Member
Spain
 
Posts: 4390
Joined: 07 Jul 2005 10:50
Location: Spain

Re: The J./ 88 of the Legion Condor (1936-39).

Postby tigre on 03 Jul 2012 22:17

Hello to all :D; Ironmachine, thanks for that great photo......... :wink:. Cheers. Raúl M 8-).
User avatar
tigre
Member
Argentina
 
Posts: 4607
Joined: 20 Mar 2005 11:48
Location: Argentina

Re: The J./ 88 of the Legion Condor (1936-39).

Postby tigre on 13 Jul 2012 22:41

Hello to all :D; something more..................

Two pictures about the J./ 88.

Cheers. Raúl M 8-).
You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post.
User avatar
tigre
Member
Argentina
 
Posts: 4607
Joined: 20 Mar 2005 11:48
Location: Argentina

Re: The J./ 88 of the Legion Condor (1936-39).

Postby kglass on 14 Jul 2012 20:16

This photo was recently offered for sale on eBay. It shows a 2.J/88 Bf-109B with matricule 6o2?. All other 2.J/88 Bf-109 photos I have seen show that staffel's cylinder hat marking in black with light colored detailing. Perhaps this plane was marked with a white cylinder hat at the whim of its pilot/ground crew. Or perhaps the early Bf-109Bs that arrived in Spain to replace the dwindling number of Bf-109As were given this marking while they still carried the dark factory applied camouflage. I have read that Haupt. Gotthard Handrick used Bf-109B matricule 6o29 before being assigned his well known Bf-109B matricule 6o56. Perhaps this image shows matricule 6o29 and that white cylinder hat was a unique marking to designate Handrick as the J/88 Kommodore. Does anyone know more and/or have additional photos?

Image

Thank you for your time,
Ken Glass
kglass
Member
United States
 
Posts: 30
Joined: 10 May 2011 23:48

Re: The J./ 88 of the Legion Condor (1936-39).

Postby tigre on 14 Jul 2012 23:47

Hello to all :D; thanks for joining here Ken, interesting picture indeed...............

Another photo showing the Bf-109 6-29 in troubles. However it had its cylinder hat in black. Cheers. Raúl M 8-).
You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post.
User avatar
tigre
Member
Argentina
 
Posts: 4607
Joined: 20 Mar 2005 11:48
Location: Argentina

Re: The J./ 88 of the Legion Condor (1936-39).

Postby tigre on 19 Jul 2012 04:03

Hello to all :D; Ken I've found another white top hat (see below)................

White top hat in the JG 53 (Pik As).........

Source: Jagdwaffe. Luftwaffe Colours. Vol 1.

Cheers. Raúl M 8-).
You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post.
User avatar
tigre
Member
Argentina
 
Posts: 4607
Joined: 20 Mar 2005 11:48
Location: Argentina

Re: The J./ 88 of the Legion Condor (1936-39).

Postby Ironmachine on 20 Jul 2012 11:27

And here's another picture of a Bf-109 with the "white hat":
white hat.jpg

Source: http://www.afwing.com/intro/me109/3.htm
Unfortunately, it is also from World War II. I know of no photo of a "white hat" during the Spanish Civil War but the one kglass posted.
You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post.
Last edited by Ironmachine on 20 Jul 2012 11:37, edited 1 time in total.
User avatar
Ironmachine
Member
Spain
 
Posts: 4390
Joined: 07 Jul 2005 10:50
Location: Spain

Re: The J./ 88 of the Legion Condor (1936-39).

Postby Ironmachine on 20 Jul 2012 11:34

The following quote, taken from http://deconstructingmak.blogspot.com.es/2009/12/zylinderhut.html, may also be of interest (I don't know the original source of the quote, but it seems to be a book):
"The Legion Condor 'Zylinder Hut' given to its popularity between the German pilots was present on a multitude of fuselages of the Germanic airplanes during World War II. Lt. Hubert Kroeck of the Jagdgeswader 53 'Pik Ace' used the 'Zylinder Hut' of 2.J/88 as a personal emblem. Curiously the 'Hat of Glass' that was painted on the fuselage of his Messerschmitt was white and not black as was typical in 2.J/88 of the Legion Condor. Like Kroeck, another member of 2.J/88 'Zylinder Hut', Oblt. Herbert Ihlefeld also used the 'Hat of Glass' as a personal emblem, at least during the course of Battle of England in which he was Gruppenkomandeur of I. (j) LG 2. Oblt. Herbert Ihlefeld survived World War II and reached a total of 132 victories. Oblt. Reinhard Seiler, “Ace” in Spain and member of 2.J/88 'Zylinder Hut', also used the 'Hat of Glass' as his personal insignia during World War II. Oblt. Seiler served with Jagdgeswader 54 'Grünherz' fighting on the Russian Front and survived the end of war with 109 victories. Finally, another veteran of the Legion Condor in Spain, the Fw. Alfred Held, who flew with 4.J/88 'Pik Ace', also used the 'Hat of Glass' like a personal emblem, adorned by a legend that said “Kolle alaaf”. By the 4th of September 1940 Alfred Held had the singular honor of being the first Luftwaffe commander to have destroyed an airplane of the R.A.F."

If Kroeck used a "white hat" emblem during World War II, he may be the one who used it during the Spanish Civil War, also. However, it should be noted that there is no reference to the symbol being painted in white during the Spanish Civil War.
Regards
User avatar
Ironmachine
Member
Spain
 
Posts: 4390
Joined: 07 Jul 2005 10:50
Location: Spain

Re: The J./ 88 of the Legion Condor (1936-39).

Postby tigre on 20 Jul 2012 14:29

Hello to all :D; thanks for your complement Ironmachine :wink:. Cheers. Raúl M 8-).
User avatar
tigre
Member
Argentina
 
Posts: 4607
Joined: 20 Mar 2005 11:48
Location: Argentina

Re: The J./ 88 of the Legion Condor (1936-39).

Postby kglass on 20 Jul 2012 20:11

Thank you tigre and Ironmachine for posting those photos of H. Kroeck's Bf-109E. The use of a white top hat on his plane supports the possibility that perhaps more than one dark painted Bf-109B carried a white 2.J/88 marking in Spain. But the available photo record indicates many J/88 Bf-109s were flown without staffel markings.

The following is in addition to my 7-14-2012 posting above. It is the result of a 'nuts and bolts' study of the J/88 Bf-109 photos available to me. It ignores the Bf-109V/A machines from the first batch of Bf-109s sent to Spain. All of these were delivered in a very light color top side finish, providing a high contrast to their black top hat markings. Only Bf-109A matricule 6o3 is known to have been later repainted in a dark greens camouflage finish, while serving with 1.J/88.

I have seen photos of only 15 Jumo powered Bf-109B/C/D variants marked with the 2.J/88 top hat staffel insignia. Those matricules are 6o19, o23, o29, o32, o35, o45, o47, o52, o53, o56, o60, o61, o64, o73 and that o2? with white top hat. All but the last, with the partially known matricule, show the top hat in black on planes that had been repainted in light gray camouflage on their upper surfaces. The plane with white top hat was photographed while still in its factory applied two dark greens camouflage finish. In every instance there is a high contrast between the camouflage and staffel marking.

I hope there are more photos of other dark green painted Bf-109s of 2.J/88, also carrying a white top hat insignia. It seems reasonable to suggest a white top hat marking was used on 2.J/88 planes still wearing their original camouflage, until they were repainted. Given the range of the matricules listed above, it seems unlikely all were in Spain and available to 2.J/88 at the same time. By the time J/88 was based at La Senia only four of the original Bf-109V/As are known to have remained in service. These were matricules 6o6, 6o7, 6o10 and 6o16. So how were some eight to twelve Bf-109s assigned to 2.J/88 marked?

The photographic record of J/88 Bf-109s remains incomplete, but it seems to indicate only one carried that white top hat marking. It would appear from the available photos the top hat marking was not much used by the original batch of Bf-109Bs to arrive in Spain, not until after most had been repainted in light gray, after some considerable time in service. This seems unlikely due to the apparent popularity of the top hat insignia with the pilots. Perhaps the situation was that not all 2.J/88 planes carried a top hat insignia for a considerable period of time or perhaps ever. There are photos of Bf-109Bs with matricules 6o17, o18, o19, o21, o22, o24, o25, o26, o27, o28 and o30; all still in their original dark greens camouflage, and none showing a staffel marking. Matricules 6o59, o72, o74, o80, o83, o84 and o95 were all Bf-109C/D variants, all with light gray top side camouflage and none photographed with a staffel or personal marking.

Finally and for completeness, I have not seen photos of 6o39, o65, o77, o81, o85, either one or the other of o41 or o46, or of o43 while it was still intact. The one photo of o48 is not from an angle advantageous to determine if it carried a top hat. Other matricules between 6o20 and o86, that were not cited in the above, are known to have been assigned to 1. or 3.J/88. There are enough gaps in the available photo record (if and when filled in) that could change the direction of the observations given above, if only we had those as yet 'missing' photos!

Regards,
Ken Glass
kglass
Member
United States
 
Posts: 30
Joined: 10 May 2011 23:48

Re: The J./ 88 of the Legion Condor (1936-39).

Postby tigre on 20 Jul 2012 22:21

Hello to all :D; thank you Ken for briefing us about your study........indeed a great research you're carrying out over there :wink:. Hope something shows up in regard of this topic. Cheers. Raúl M 8-).
User avatar
tigre
Member
Argentina
 
Posts: 4607
Joined: 20 Mar 2005 11:48
Location: Argentina

Next

Return to Spanish Civil War & Legion Condor

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: CommonCrawl [Bot] and 1 guest