The J./ 88 of the Legion Condor (1936-39).

Discussions on all aspects of the Spanish Civil War including the Condor Legion, the Germans fighting for Franco in the Spanish Civil War.
durb
Member
Posts: 628
Joined: 06 May 2014 09:31

Re: The J./ 88 of the Legion Condor (1936-39).

Postby durb » 15 May 2014 10:30

"Yes, a few Bf-109 B were flown by Spanish pilots as part of Group 5G5 (a mixed unit that also incluyed the He-112s bought by Spain), but that was already in 1939 (since February, IIRC). I don't remember any "Spanish" Bf-109 being shot down (which is plausible, considering the state of the republican fighter force at the time)."

Good info again. I had read about the handover of Bf 109 B´s to Spanish units during the Civil War, but I was not sure when this took place and if it had any importance. I have read also that the top Spanish Nationalist ace Joaquín Garcia Morato flew some hours with Bf 109, although these were only test flights. He probably made some evaluation raport, which perhaps is hidden somewhere in the archives.

When it comes to He 51, it is a entirely different story as quite many of these biplanes were flown by Spanish pilots during the war.

As small detail as it is, the only pilot to score air victory with He 112 in the Spanish Civil War seems to be a Spaniard. Miguel García Pardo (5-G-5) claimed an I-16 on 19.1.1939 (Igualada, Catalonia?). Mike Spick (The Luftwaffe Aces) gives the credit of the only He 112 victory claim in Spain to Gunther Radusch (and to J./88), but that is not supported by Radusch´s claim record.

User avatar
tigre
Member
Posts: 6585
Joined: 20 Mar 2005 11:48
Location: Argentina

Re: The J./ 88 of the Legion Condor (1936-39).

Postby tigre » 25 May 2014 21:03

Hello to all :D; speaking about Bf-109 under Spanish colours..........

Fighter Group Nº 25.

Source: Deut.Jagdflugzeug,MeBf109,spanische LW,Jagdflieger-Gruppe25,Kennung,Spanien,39. eBay Auction.

Cheers. Raúl M 8-).
You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post.

User avatar
Ironmachine
Member
Posts: 4972
Joined: 07 Jul 2005 10:50
Location: Spain

Re: The J./ 88 of the Legion Condor (1936-39).

Postby Ironmachine » 26 May 2014 06:52

tigre wrote:Hello to all ; speaking about Bf-109 under Spanish colours..........

Yes, but this pictures are post-SCW, as can be seen by the red-yellow-red roundel and the "23" code.

User avatar
tigre
Member
Posts: 6585
Joined: 20 Mar 2005 11:48
Location: Argentina

Re: The J./ 88 of the Legion Condor (1936-39).

Postby tigre » 26 May 2014 12:45

Thanks for shedding light on it. Those were Bf-109E-1 isn't it?. Cheers. Raúl M 8-).

User avatar
Ironmachine
Member
Posts: 4972
Joined: 07 Jul 2005 10:50
Location: Spain

Re: The J./ 88 of the Legion Condor (1936-39).

Postby Ironmachine » 26 May 2014 17:19

AFAIK, it is a Bf 109 E-3 (because it is the same plane, 23-43, in both pictures). The photos were taken at Reus airbase in 1954 and 1953 respectively.

User avatar
tigre
Member
Posts: 6585
Joined: 20 Mar 2005 11:48
Location: Argentina

Re: The J./ 88 of the Legion Condor (1936-39).

Postby tigre » 26 May 2014 20:50

Thank you very much again :wink:. Cheers. Raúl M 8-).

durb
Member
Posts: 628
Joined: 06 May 2014 09:31

Re: The J./ 88 of the Legion Condor (1936-39).

Postby durb » 28 May 2014 15:30

A trivial question: when was the radio equipment added to the Bf 109´s of J./88? To me it appears the radio mast with it´s wiring came with Bf 109 E. I have not seen any sign of radiomast or radio wiring in the Legion Condor photos and colourplates of earlier B,C and D models. Maybe I´m just blind?

User avatar
Ironmachine
Member
Posts: 4972
Joined: 07 Jul 2005 10:50
Location: Spain

Re: The J./ 88 of the Legion Condor (1936-39).

Postby Ironmachine » 28 May 2014 19:55

I think you are right. AFAIK, Legion Kondor's 109 B, C and Ds did not have the radio mast behind the cockpit or the antenna wires.
Regards.

paulrward
Member
Posts: 147
Joined: 10 Dec 2008 20:14

Re: The J./ 88 of the Legion Condor (1936-39).

Postby paulrward » 29 May 2014 22:47

Hello All ,
The Bf109 B-1s sent to Spain in 1937 had provisions for short range FuG 7 radio, but this was not fitted to the aircraft sent to Spain. The Bf 109 C-1s were fitted with the FuG 7, as were the -109 Ds and Es.
It may be that, if radios were removed, due to lack of serviceability, that the antenna would be removed as well. And, as the radio was fitted in the aft fuselage, it would be prone to heavy jarring and vibration on takeoff and landing, as well as in air combat, making reliability somewhat problematic in the conditions existing in Spain.

Respectfully ;
Paul R. Ward

durb
Member
Posts: 628
Joined: 06 May 2014 09:31

Re: The J./ 88 of the Legion Condor (1936-39).

Postby durb » 05 Jun 2014 15:43

Robert Forsyth´s Aces of Legion Condor mentions, that some of the Bf 109 B-1´s were fitted with radio. However, the photo evidence shows, that radio masts and antena wiring was almost always missing from the Bf 109 B / C / D of the Legion Condor. My guess is that radio was fitted and used only in very few planes before the arrival of Bf 109 E.

It has been suggested that the radio equipment played a part in the creation of Rotten and Schwarmen tactic and that radio communication allowed more loose formations than before. However, I have seen both photos and colourplates of Werner Mölder´s Bf 109 D - it seems that he had not radio, and the new Schwarmen manouvers were possible without radio communication. Compare this to American Thach´s Weave manouver, which was very similar to a typical Schwarmen manouver - radio communication was not needed to execute it, visual contact between leaders and wingmen was enough.

durb
Member
Posts: 628
Joined: 06 May 2014 09:31

Re: The J./ 88 of the Legion Condor (1936-39).

Postby durb » 09 Jun 2014 16:36

I would be interested to know more about the plane of Gunther Lutzow. Here is the info I have about his plane on the spring 1937 when he scored the first air victory of Bf 109:

- Bf 109 B-1, Legion Condor number probably 6 - 10.
- IIRC, Lutzow was in 2.J/88 - this means that Zylinderhut decorated the plane
- the colour of plane probably RLM 02 at the spring of 1937 or light metal or bare metal?
- no radio mast or antena wiring in 1937 though it appears that radio was fitted later in this plane (somewhere around 1938/1939).
- factory serial number?
- is there any image or colourplate of his plane, which could be used in a web article without copyright restrictions?

The colour question of Legion Condor Bf 109´s is really confusing as it has been stated earlier in this thread. We have lots of black/white photos showing us planes with light colours (suggesting light grey). However the researchers have come to the conclusion that Grau matt RLM 02 was used at the early stage and later RLM 72/73. So maybe the b/w photos lead to wrong conclusion, because b/w may lose their "colours" by the time becoming lighter. Still I have difficulty to believe expert researchers suggesting dark colours when I see all those old b/w photos.

durb
Member
Posts: 628
Joined: 06 May 2014 09:31

Re: The J./ 88 of the Legion Condor (1936-39).

Postby durb » 23 Jun 2014 21:41

Just a quick question. What happened to 3.J/88 on 1.4.1937?

I have seen a combat loss list which states that five of their Heinkel 51´s were shot down on that day and this was perhaps the biggest single combat loss of J/88 during the whole SCW. However, no details were given. The location was Santa Aguada (I guess Northern Front?). It is possible that even a sixth Heinkel 51 was shot down during the same day near Vitoria.

Source: Patrick Laureau, Condor, The Luftwaffe in Spain, 1936-39.

Sergio Uno
Member
Posts: 6
Joined: 07 May 2013 13:40

Re: The J./ 88 of the Legion Condor (1936-39).

Postby Sergio Uno » 07 Jul 2014 13:52

durb wrote:I would be interested to know more about the plane of Gunther Lutzow. Here is the info I have about his plane on the spring 1937 when he scored the first air victory of Bf 109:


I wonder if you have access to the "Luftwaffe Colours Vol. 1, Section 2 -- Jagdwaffe. The Spanish Cvil War" by Eric Mombeek et al (Classic Publications, 1999)? On p. 128 it has two shots of Lützow's mount, taken at different times. The first one (top) shows the 6-10 without the Zylinderhut and metal propeller, whereas the second shot sports both additions.

Re: Telefunken FuG VII equipment. Radinger and Schick assure that FuG VII was considered a secret equipment as late as 1940. Even the Swiss Bf 109E-3a fighters did not get them for the above reason.

Re: Laureau's list of downed Bf 109s. Polenz' mount was most certainly not shot down. it landed behind the Republican lines "almost intact" (some sources refer to damage to fuel lines though). There is a Russian monograph dedicated to its evaluation in the Soviet Union and the final fate with numerous photos.

durb
Member
Posts: 628
Joined: 06 May 2014 09:31

Re: The J./ 88 of the Legion Condor (1936-39).

Postby durb » 08 Jul 2014 14:13

Thanks for info.

Yes, I have also noted inaccurancies in Laureau´s tables. The idea of presenting losses is good, but Laureau´s lists give an impression of unfinished job and poor proof-reading/check editing. There must be probably something better available (perhaps a new edition or newer work of Laureau´s correcting the previous mistakes).

I checked the losses of six (!) Heinkel 51´s on 1.4.1936. So far only one can be confirmed from other sources (and even from Laureau´s book!) and that was the He 51 piloted by lieutenant Wilhelm Blankenagel (shot down most probably by flak). Also there is other Heinkel 51 mentioned as "shot down". That was the machine piloted by Oskar Heinrici during the famous air battle over Madrid on 13.11.1936 - actually Heinrici was mortally wounded but managed to bring the Heinkel back to its base.

Personally I´m interested of the confirmed plane losses of the both sides to get a picture, what were the actual results of air combats. Both sides (incl. Legion Condor) tended to have inflated air victory records which give false information. Overclaiming was very common in air combats - there were false claims made in good faith up to wildly exaggerated claims (propaganda playing a part).

durb
Member
Posts: 628
Joined: 06 May 2014 09:31

Re: The J./ 88 of the Legion Condor (1936-39).

Postby durb » 12 Aug 2014 13:44

Does someone know about the actual losses of He 51 in air-to-air combat? The He 51 has been described as a plane very inferior to I-15 and I-16. Legion Condor ace Harro Harder claimed that Ratas played cat and mouse with He 51. However Legion Condor pilots made lots of claims vs. I-16/I-15 and according to these claims loss/kill-ratio was clearly favourable to He 51!

However, it is likely that Germans overclaimed just as everyone else and real loss/kill -ratio was somewhat less favourable to J./88 than they claimed. But was the mediocre performance of He 51 demonstrated in air combats to cause heavy losses?

AFAIK, most He 51 losses were due to AA fire (when He 51´s were employed for ground attacks). How many of He 51´s were actually shot down by Republican fighters and can anyone provide info of these cases?

I would be also interested to know the date and location of each recorded He 51 loss to compare it with Republican claims regarding He 51.


Return to “Spanish Civil War & Legion Condor”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: CommonCrawl [Bot]