use of 8,8 cm Flak against tanks
use of 8,8 cm Flak against tanks
Hello,
again and again it is claimed that the Flak 36/37 was used against tanks in Spain and that these successful missions paved the way for the anti-tank role of German ant-aircraft guns and led ultimately to the development of Pak 43.
I very much doubt this story for the simple reason that there were no tanks in Spain the 3,7 cm Pak were unable to deal with... Does anybody has sources (combat records, kill claims) from the SCW period describing the use of 8,8 cm Flak against tanks? Or period sources from before 1940 that state the before mentioned story?
regards
Matt
again and again it is claimed that the Flak 36/37 was used against tanks in Spain and that these successful missions paved the way for the anti-tank role of German ant-aircraft guns and led ultimately to the development of Pak 43.
I very much doubt this story for the simple reason that there were no tanks in Spain the 3,7 cm Pak were unable to deal with... Does anybody has sources (combat records, kill claims) from the SCW period describing the use of 8,8 cm Flak against tanks? Or period sources from before 1940 that state the before mentioned story?
regards
Matt
Last edited by Dieter Zinke on 12 Aug 2012, 11:58, edited 2 times in total.
Reason: correct is Flak and Pak (not FlaK or PaK) ! Always please 3,7 cm & 8,8 cm - and never 37 mm or 88 mm !!!!
Reason: correct is Flak and Pak (not FlaK or PaK) ! Always please 3,7 cm & 8,8 cm - and never 37 mm or 88 mm !!!!
- Ironmachine
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Re: use of 8,8 cm Flak against tanks
A similar question was asked in this forum some time ago (I remember answering to it), but IIRC no source was provided.
You are right that there were no tanks in Spain the 3,7 cm Pak were unable to deal with, but the number of 3,7 cm Pak available was limited, and perhaps they would not be always available when needed. However, given the small number of tanks used in the SCW, and the tactics employed, it is questionable whether the 8,8 cm Flak ever acted in an anti-tank role as is usually claimed. Certainly, I have never find a definitive source, but that not means that it didn't happen. There is no doubt that the 8,8 cm Flak was used during the SCW against ground targets, so its use against tanks is not so unbelievable.
The closest to a reliable source that I have found is taken from the book El Legendario Cañón Antiaéreo de 88mm. Su Historia y Evolución en el Ejército Español by Lucas Molina Franco (1996), which claims that the only known written evidence of the use of the "88" in an anti-tank role during the SCW is that Martinez Campos in his book Ayer, where he says, talking about the fight in Reinosa in 1937, more or less that the "Flak nullify all the efforts of the tanks". The book adds that other indirect evidence, like regimental histories, seems to corroborate this version.
As you can see, it is far from being a definitive proof.
Regards.
You are right that there were no tanks in Spain the 3,7 cm Pak were unable to deal with, but the number of 3,7 cm Pak available was limited, and perhaps they would not be always available when needed. However, given the small number of tanks used in the SCW, and the tactics employed, it is questionable whether the 8,8 cm Flak ever acted in an anti-tank role as is usually claimed. Certainly, I have never find a definitive source, but that not means that it didn't happen. There is no doubt that the 8,8 cm Flak was used during the SCW against ground targets, so its use against tanks is not so unbelievable.
The closest to a reliable source that I have found is taken from the book El Legendario Cañón Antiaéreo de 88mm. Su Historia y Evolución en el Ejército Español by Lucas Molina Franco (1996), which claims that the only known written evidence of the use of the "88" in an anti-tank role during the SCW is that Martinez Campos in his book Ayer, where he says, talking about the fight in Reinosa in 1937, more or less that the "Flak nullify all the efforts of the tanks". The book adds that other indirect evidence, like regimental histories, seems to corroborate this version.
As you can see, it is far from being a definitive proof.
Regards.
- Ironmachine
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Re: use of 8,8 cm Flak against tanks
Ah, I have found it:A similar question was asked in this forum some time ago (I remember answering to it), but IIRC no source was provided.
http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic.php?f=50&t=94365
but as I remembered no source is provided.
Re: use of 8,8 cm Flak against tanks
Ospreys Legion Condor mention use of AA guns against ground targets, bunkers but also tanks. As a reason it provides flat trajectories.
In some other book/ article (sorry I don't remember the name) as a reason for using 8,8 cm against tanks in Spain was provided, that 45 mm gun of T-26 was effective on longer range then available AT guns.
In some other book/ article (sorry I don't remember the name) as a reason for using 8,8 cm against tanks in Spain was provided, that 45 mm gun of T-26 was effective on longer range then available AT guns.
Re: use of 8,8 cm Flak against tanks
Thanks guys! Interesting to see that others were thinking in the same direction.
Re: use of 8,8 cm Flak against tanks
may be translation of this could help
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Re: use of 8,8 cm Flak against tanks
That's conclusive proof that they did use it against ground targets with very good effects claimed.
The enemy had superiority in numbers, his tanks were more heavily armoured, they had larger calibre guns with nearly twice the effective range of ours, and their telescopes were superior. 5 RTR 19/11/41
The CRUSADER Project - The Winter Battle 1941/42
The CRUSADER Project - The Winter Battle 1941/42
- Ironmachine
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Re: use of 8,8 cm Flak against tanks
That they were used against ground targets is well known and there are a number of conclusive sources for that. But is there any specific mention of their use against tanks in those pages?Urmel wrote:That's conclusive proof that they did use it against ground targets with very good effects claimed.
Re: use of 8,8 cm Flak against tanks
Yes.
The enemy had superiority in numbers, his tanks were more heavily armoured, they had larger calibre guns with nearly twice the effective range of ours, and their telescopes were superior. 5 RTR 19/11/41
The CRUSADER Project - The Winter Battle 1941/42
The CRUSADER Project - The Winter Battle 1941/42
- Ironmachine
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Re: use of 8,8 cm Flak against tanks
And would you be so kind as to quote the specific part and translate it for me, please?
- Ironmachine
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Re: use of 8,8 cm Flak against tanks
Because I find it quite surprising that when in Osprey's book 88 mm FlaK 18/36/37/41 and PaK 43 1936-45 the author uses Deutsche Kampfen in Spanien as "proof" of how the anti-aircraft guns could be used in an anti-tank role, the quote selected is this:
In fact, there are a number of similar claims. For example, there is a well-known quote from General Vigón that, when talking about the Catalonia campaign, wrote:
Regards.
Edited to correct a mistake in the quote.
As you can see, there is no mention of tanks or of anti-tank combat. If there was a specific mention of the use of the FlaK guns against tanks in those pages, I wonder why it was not quoted. If all that was presented in the book is this quote above, that's no proof of the use of 8,8 cm Flak against tanks, which is the reason I did not mention it in my first post.From the beginning of 1937 "FlaK" artillery was used more and more in ground warfare, for which its precise aim, its rapid fire and its range made it specially suited... This led finally to the use of "FlaK" in the last great offensive of the Spanish War, in Catalonia, in the following proportions: of the total ammunition fired by these guns, 7 percent was against air targets and 93 percent against ground targets.
In fact, there are a number of similar claims. For example, there is a well-known quote from General Vigón that, when talking about the Catalonia campaign, wrote:
It's much more specific than the statement in Deutsche Kampfen in Spanien as this one mentions vehicles (all kinds of wheeled vehicles, probably), but again no mention of tanks....la Cóndor ha suavizado la prohibición de que los cañones de 88 antiaéreos tiren a tierra, y lo están haciendo con una gran precisión sobre los coches en movimiento que se descuidan”.
Regards.
Edited to correct a mistake in the quote.
Last edited by Ironmachine on 03 Sep 2012, 18:01, edited 1 time in total.
Re: use of 8,8 cm Flak against tanks
Difficult with a baby on your arm.Ironmachine wrote:And would you be so kind as to quote the specific part and translate it for me, please?
They calculated 7% of all ammunition fired during the Catalunya offensive to be anti-air, and 93% anti-tank.
This from the text:
When he hid behind protective walls or in trenches, time-fuses crashed above him, when he crawled into concrete bunkers, light rounds were fired into the slits, so that everything in the bunker was burnt and torn to pieces. When he closed in tanks, then the APHE (? - Panzerspreng) round received them.
The enemy had superiority in numbers, his tanks were more heavily armoured, they had larger calibre guns with nearly twice the effective range of ours, and their telescopes were superior. 5 RTR 19/11/41
The CRUSADER Project - The Winter Battle 1941/42
The CRUSADER Project - The Winter Battle 1941/42
- Ironmachine
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Re: use of 8,8 cm Flak against tanks
I don't understand. Did you have a baby on your arm when you posted your last post? Would have been quoting the relevant part and its translation more difficult than what you did?Urmel wrote:Difficult with a baby on your arm.
This looks like the part I quoted from the Osprey's book; and there the translation is not "93% anti-tank" but "93% ground targets".Urmel wrote:They calculated 7% of all ammunition fired during the Catalunya offensive to be anti-air, and 93% anti-tank.
If I'm not wrong the relevant word is "erdziele", which AFAIK is really traslated as "ground targets". So I think you are wrong in this point.
With my very limited German knowledge and the small size of the text involved I'm having problems trying to identify the original text for this translation. But the translation, as presented, makes little sense. And, with all due respect, considering the apparently wrong translation that you made in the previous point, I have my doubts about the accuracy of this one. So it would be nice if you can quote the original text so anyone with good knowlegde of German can offer a new translation. I would like to know a second opinion before making up my mind.Urmel wrote:This from the text:When he hid behind protective walls or in trenches, time-fuses crashed above him, when he crawled into concrete bunkers, light rounds were fired into the slits, so that everything in the bunker was burnt and torn to pieces. When he closed in tanks, then the APHE (? - Panzerspreng) round received them.
Regards.
Re: use of 8,8 cm Flak against tanks
Sorry, Freudian slip due to tiredness, the correct text is ground targets, thanks for pointing that out. I am a German native speaker, but not perfect, unlike other posters. Since you are a friendly and polite chap, you won't have trouble finding someone else who is perfect however to help you with your request I am sure, since I have better things to do now. Good luck.
The enemy had superiority in numbers, his tanks were more heavily armoured, they had larger calibre guns with nearly twice the effective range of ours, and their telescopes were superior. 5 RTR 19/11/41
The CRUSADER Project - The Winter Battle 1941/42
The CRUSADER Project - The Winter Battle 1941/42
- Ironmachine
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Re: use of 8,8 cm Flak against tanks
Interestingly, AFAIK the action about which more details are known is the one that is usually presented as the first time that the 88mm guns were used in an anti-tank role. This would have occurred on 11 May 1937, south of Toledo, against two T -26. The guns involved were not part of the Condor Legion, but Spanish guns of the "Agrupación de Artillería Antiaérea" (which considering the circunstances at the time, makes much more sense than if they were Condor Legion's guns).
The fact that there is such level of detail (who, where, when, against whom...) strongly suggests that there is a reliable original source involved, but unfortunately I have never seen it, so I can not consider it as a "conclusive proof".
Regards.
The fact that there is such level of detail (who, where, when, against whom...) strongly suggests that there is a reliable original source involved, but unfortunately I have never seen it, so I can not consider it as a "conclusive proof".
Regards.