Guernica

Discussions on all aspects of the Spanish Civil War including the Condor Legion, the Germans fighting for Franco in the Spanish Civil War.
James McBride
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Guernica

#1

Post by James McBride » 27 Apr 2003, 23:55

What is the story behind the painting? I think I remember that it was a small village whose people were killed, but by who and for what reason?

I searched, which I should have done in the first place, and now know that it was bombed by Germans. I still don't know why it was bombed though. Just testing out weapons?

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Deterance
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#2

Post by Deterance » 28 Apr 2003, 00:33

James,

The sources I read refered to your point that Germany was experimenting with airpower doctrine in Spain.

Guernica was being advanced on by Nationalist regulars and Right wing Basque groups. The town had a left wing reputation and also had small machine shops being used for armaments production. Nationalists selected the town to be bombed for both reasons.

Germans said.....OK

The resulting bombing by about 20 light bombers led to international out cry.... Cathederal got hit and Priest and parishoners were killed during Mass. However, Republicans then highly exagerrated the death toll for propaganda reasons thus town became a symbol for civilian deaths caused by bombing.

I dont know if Picasso witnessed attack or not.


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#3

Post by James McBride » 28 Apr 2003, 00:37

The website I read after asking the question said that he was at some sort of demonstration, but was not present at the bombing. It seemed strange that even the Nazis would bomb a small Spanish village without at least some reason, legitament or not.

James

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Deterance
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#4

Post by Deterance » 28 Apr 2003, 00:43

It seemed strange that even the Nazis would bomb a small Spanish village without at least some reason, legitament or not.

James[/quote]

I agree....Germans were probably looking for "tests" and were probably very willing to fullfill Nationalist request for bombing run.

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Javichu
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#5

Post by Javichu » 28 Apr 2003, 01:54

Guernika was a little town indeed but placed in a strategic crossroad.Its bridge was the only that could allow part of the Republican Army of the Northern front a safe retreat...And over all there was placed the "Arbol de Guernica" a symbol of the Basque Country ,a tree unbder which branches the president of the Basque Country (Lehendakari) swear his charge until nowadays...
This said the bombing was done without authorisation of the Nationalist Government and even without their knowledge.The Bridge wasn´t destroyed and it is said that only three of the He111 tryed to bomb it.
There was only a small pistol manufacturing workshop that wasn´t destroyed in the attack.The bulk of the troops camped near the town had left it early this day and the remaining were far from the center of the town and they weren´t bombed.
The reasons of the attack aren´t clear even today...It has been said that it was just a test for terror bombing techniques as later used by Luftwaffe given the kind of bombs used (Incendiary,light AP...) But why didnt they bomb a bigger city ?Because this was a symbol for the Basque soldiers? Anyway civilian objectives were being bombed sice the beggining of the war :? ...Valladolid was bombed twice at the exact time the kids were going out of school and many were killed (This was the Republican Air Force).While my Mother´s hometown -that was a main railroad cross with an Alcohol factory -was only bombed once by two light bombers that only managed to straffe a girl that refused to jump into a ditch because she was wearing a new dress :cry:
I think new documents arose recently but I´m not aware of its content...Maybe the explanation is there

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Deterance
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#6

Post by Deterance » 28 Apr 2003, 04:37

Javichu,


Thanks for the post regarding Guernica. Your information is much more complete.

Detailed information on the Spanish civil war is very difficult to find in the United States. Alot of material here has a left wing slant (to varying degrees)

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Peter H
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#7

Post by Peter H » 04 May 2003, 10:38

'The Luftwaffe: Creating the Operational Air War, 1918-1940', by James S. Corum (1997) mentions the bombing.

Corum also decisively refutes the notion about the bombing of Guernica in the Spanish Civil War being a terror bombing. He points out that the town was garrisoned by two Basque battalions, and that it was a critical road junction for the twenty-three battalions holding the defensive line east of Bilbao, crucial to their successful retreat. Corum also notes that the Germans were ignorant of Basque culture, and that the total number of people killed was no more than 300, not the wildly inflated figure of 2,500 that is commonly claimed.

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Javichu
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#8

Post by Javichu » 04 May 2003, 11:34

If you read carefully my post you see I agree with your text in NEARLY all points...
The strategical importance of the bridge-crossroad
The troops that had been camped near the town
The small number of dead
BUT:
No strategical target of any kind was destroyed(Bridge,crossroad and small ArmsManufacture) All of them remain intact until today
No troops were bombed (Recon is important -I think -and nearly all troops had left the town the day before and anyway the camping area was NOT bombed.Furthermore the remaing soldiers were the only capable of helping the civilian population)
These small number of dead was more than 30% of the population of the town...Think of London and tell me how many should have died in ONE bombing run to reach a 30% casualties
"La Cóndor" was aware of the significance of the town...That was one of the reasons that made the bombing useless for the Nationalist Command .It would -And it did- strength the will of resistance of the Gudaris..."Remember Guernika" was a motto of the era.
The kind of bombs used Incendiary-AntiPersonnel are only useful against human targets and buildings...

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Guernica

#9

Post by JLEES » 04 May 2003, 19:22

Hello,
I've also read in the past it wasn't just the Luftwaffe that attacked the town. The Italain airforce also jointly attacked it too.

As a side note, during the German occupation of France several German art historians, then officers in the Wehrmacht visited Picasso (who lived there during the occupation) and asked it it was true that he did Guernica. He looked directly back at them and said, I thought you did it!
James

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Óscar G
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#10

Post by Óscar G » 09 May 2003, 00:10

Hello!
I've also read in the past it wasn't just the Luftwaffe that attacked the town. The Italain airforce also jointly attacked it too.
It can be assumed that several Savoia SM.79 and Fiat CR.32 took part in the attack. The Fiat belonged to the 26 flight squadron commanded by Captain Viola escorted the german bombers. The three Savoia are supposed to have flown over (and bombed) the bridge of Guernica, being part of the 2nd wave.

We can admitted that five Fiat escorted the Ju52 attacking Guernica on 26 April 1937. Other sources state that there were 10 Fiat that attacked Guernica and Arbacegui-Guericaiz crossroad (being their commanders Capt. Viola and Ricci). As for bombers, Col Pilota V. Chiappini wrote: " 3 apparecchi S.79 ore 5.20: bombardamento de pont di Guernica, bombe lanciate: 36 da Kg 50" (3 planes S.79 at 5:20 bombed the bridge at Guernica droppint 36 boms of 50 Kg).

Hope this helps.
Óscar

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Guernica Bomb Damage

#11

Post by JLEES » 01 Jun 2003, 14:28

In terms of overall bomb damage, by WWII standards, was Guernica badly damaged during the attack. How many people died and what percentage of the town was destroyed? Or, was the bombing of the town more a Republican Propaganda move to get support from the outside world?
James

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Javier Acuña
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#12

Post by Javier Acuña » 01 Jun 2003, 18:55

According to what I've read, Guernica at that time was a small village of 6.000 people. On April 26 1937 20 airplanes dropped 30 tons of bombs (those bombs were 250 kilograms each, that makes about 120 bombs dropped) and incendiary elements above the city while machine gunning the civilians nearby and inside Guernica. Aprox. 25% of the village was directly destroyed to the ground. The fires destroyed the rest of the city (The houses were made of wood and padding). The 7 shelters of the city were unabled to protect all the population.

Guernica was taken 3 days later by Franco's troops, and according to them, only 100 people died, but figures from the city government claim that 1645 people died and 889 died. Franco's Government wasn't very interested in investigating the real number of casualties.

At first, the franquist government denyed the bombing, but later claimed that local villagers and communists burned the place to the ground.

At the time of the bobardment, Franco's troops were unable to take Madrid, Guernica was more or less a punishment to Vizcaya (Biscay) and an example to rest of Spain. Guernica had no military value.




The painting Guernica (Picasso): Image

Real Guernica:
Image

Image

JLEES
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Guernica

#13

Post by JLEES » 01 Jun 2003, 22:40

Javier,
In 1937 could 20 airplanes dropped 30 tons of bombs at 250 kilograms each, or 120 bombs total? That would be 1 1/2 tons per plane, or six 250 kilograms bombs from each plane. In one flight they couldn't have been German Ju-87s. Years ago, I heard the Germans did the bombing with Ju-87 Stukas, but now know the Italian airforce also jointly attacked the city too. Were a majority of the attacking bombers Italian, or were the Germans using Ju-88s. I don't think the Germans had He-111s then. So I'm wondering whom dropped the majority of the bombs if only 20 planes attacked the city. Due to the total bombs dropped and if a Ju-87 can carry only one 500 pound bomb, or four 250 pound bombs, were did all these bombs come from and who did the majority of the bombing, the Germans or Italians?
James

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Javier Acuña
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#14

Post by Javier Acuña » 02 Jun 2003, 03:49

You're totally right, I think the numbers don't match. I must have mixed or forgoten the real information, I'll check it out and post it back.

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Peter H
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Re: Guernica

#15

Post by Peter H » 02 Jun 2003, 06:18

JLEES wrote:Javier,
In 1937 could 20 airplanes dropped 30 tons of bombs at 250 kilograms each, or 120 bombs total? That would be 1 1/2 tons per plane, or six 250 kilograms bombs from each plane. In one flight they couldn't have been German Ju-87s. Years ago, I heard the Germans did the bombing with Ju-87 Stukas, but now know the Italian airforce also jointly attacked the city too. Were a majority of the attacking bombers Italian, or were the Germans using Ju-88s. I don't think the Germans had He-111s then. So I'm wondering whom dropped the majority of the bombs if only 20 planes attacked the city. Due to the total bombs dropped and if a Ju-87 can carry only one 500 pound bomb, or four 250 pound bombs, were did all these bombs come from and who did the majority of the bombing, the Germans or Italians?
James
JU-87s didn't reach Spain until January 1938,well after Guernica.In early 1937 HE111s and DO17s made their appearance,with 30 or so medium bombers replacing the old Junkers 52s.HE111B-2s bombed Guernica,part of Kgr88 Staffel.

A total of 75 HE111s served in Spain(B2,E,F models),and at the end of the war the 58 survivors became a part of the Spanish Air Force.

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