K/88 of Legion Condor

Discussions on all aspects of the Spanish Civil War including the Condor Legion, the Germans fighting for Franco in the Spanish Civil War.
User avatar
Ironmachine
Member
Posts: 4972
Joined: 07 Jul 2005 10:50
Location: Spain

Re: K/88 of Legion Condor

Postby Ironmachine » 30 Nov 2014 13:12

Yes, they were part of VB/88, but that unit, while a separate unit on paper, operated AFAIK as an additional squadron of K88. However, it is up to you if you want to consider those losses or not.

User avatar
Ironmachine
Member
Posts: 4972
Joined: 07 Jul 2005 10:50
Location: Spain

Re: K/88 of Legion Condor

Postby Ironmachine » 30 Nov 2014 13:13

tigre wrote:On 07/ 25-26/1937 (night) a Ju 52 shot down in air combat over Valdemorrillo: Falk, Leo / Leutnant; Übelhack, Georg / Feldwebel; Berndt, Fritz / Unteroffizier; Brötzmann, Walter / Unteroffizier; Heyer, August / Unteroffizier.

Yes, the death list of the Condor Legion had 5 crew members killed on 25-7-1937, all of them shot down over Valdemorillo. The "logical" conclusión is that a Ju-52 was shot down and all the crew perished.
But the truth is different, as hinted by durb:
25.-26.7.1937 (night): Ju 52 over Madrid shot down by enemy fighter (I-15)
26.-27.7.1937 (night): Ju 52 (3.K/88) over Madrid shot down by enemy fighter (I-15)

As it is mentioned in Republican oficial reports, in two consecutive nights, that of 25-26 July and that of 26-27 July, one Ju-52 was shot down each night over Valdemorillo área by I-15 fighters. On the night of 25-26, the shot down plane was "22-76" of 3.K/88, with 4 crew members dead (Leo Falk, Georg Übelhack, Fritz Bendt y Walter Brötzmann) and 1 prisoner (Heinz Böttcherand); the next night, it was a Ju-52 from 1.K/88, with 1 crew member dead (August Heyer) and 4 prisoners (Johannes Remling, Rolf Pirner, Walter Schellhorn y Bruno Thielebein).

User avatar
tigre
Member
Posts: 6585
Joined: 20 Mar 2005 11:48
Location: Argentina

Re: K/88 of Legion Condor

Postby tigre » 30 Nov 2014 13:30

Thanks to both of you for shedding light on that topic :wink:. Cheers. Raúl M 8-).

User avatar
tigre
Member
Posts: 6585
Joined: 20 Mar 2005 11:48
Location: Argentina

Re: K/88 of Legion Condor

Postby tigre » 06 Dec 2014 19:11

Hello to all ; thanks for your info durb. Now something more.....................

The K/88 in the Legion Condor. K. / 88 losses in 1938.

On 01/08/1938 perished due collision against a mountain in Lerma Schick, Paul / Unteroffizier; Hoster, Erwin / Obergefreiter.
On 01/14/1938 perished from disease in Germany Wolf, Helmut / Feldwebel.
On 1/16/1938 knocked down in aerial combat over Teruel Martner, Thomas / Obergefreiter.
On 02/25/1938 perished from disease in Alfaro Hildebrand, Wilhelm / Obergefreiter.
On 03/21/1938 perished from disease in Zaragoza Schiller, Wolfgang / Leutnant.
On 04/02/1938 perished shot down over Alfaro Hoyer, Herbert / Leutnant; Hoyer, Walter / Feldwebel (relatives?); Brüggemann, Herbert / Feldwebel; Kondziela, Kurt / Obergefreiter.
On 04/16/1938 perished after a collison against a mountain at Monasterio Siemsen, Andreas / Leutnant; Schmalfuß, Fritz / Obergefreiter; Kruschbersky, Oswald / Unteroffizier; Spieler, Rudolf / Unteroffizier; Matz, Albert / Unteroffizier; Frielingsdorf, Erich / Obergefreiter.
On 05/29/1938 perished due AA fire over San Jorge Kostlin, Karl / Leutnant.
On 08/20/1938 perished due AA fire over Gandesa Willer, Heinz / Leutnant.
On 10/01/1938 perished due AA fire over Corbera Pacht, Gerhard / Unteroffizier.
On 10/16/1938 perished when their aircraft exploded in the air over Fatarella v. Janson, Thilo / Oberleutnant; Rodel, Emil / Leutnant; Hoevener, Heinrich / Unteroffizier.
On 12/04/1938 perished shot down over the sea Achade, Gustav / Unteroffizier.
On 12/16/1938 perished due to a car accident in Zaragoza Poppenhagen, Herbert / Feldwebel.
On 12/25/1938 perished due to a car accident in Burgos Stöver, Gustav / Unteroffizier.

Sources: http://forum.panzer-archiv.de/viewtopic ... or&start=0
http://www.aviationcorner.net/gallery_e ... ype_id=952

Cheers. Raúl M 8-).
You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post.

durb
Member
Posts: 628
Joined: 06 May 2014 09:31

Re: K/88 of Legion Condor

Postby durb » 07 Dec 2014 23:32

I wonder if there is some combat casualty statistic of Legion Condor? I have seen complete looking lists with all the names etc. and it would not be too difficult to make lists from that base. But maybe there are already stats telling us the number of KIA and MIA losses of LC and how they were "shared" between different units of LC. My rough guess is that K/88 was a "more dangerous" unit to serve in with numerically and relatively more KIA/MIA casualties than other LC air units. With KIA and MIA losses I mean losses caused by enemy activity.

The accidents killed lots of men too and it could be interesting to see which LC unit suffered from accidents most - was it K/88? Engine failures, fatal piloting mistakes, weather-related crashes etc. - these could kill men as much as the enemy.

User avatar
tigre
Member
Posts: 6585
Joined: 20 Mar 2005 11:48
Location: Argentina

Re: K/88 of Legion Condor

Postby tigre » 09 Dec 2014 14:01

Hello to all :D; something more.....................

The K/88 in the Legion Condor. K. / 88 losses in 1939.

On 01/04/1939 perished being shot down over Tarragona Albrecht, Bruno / Unteroffizier; v. Prodzynski, Horst / Unteroffizier.
On 01/17/1939 perished being shot down over Ocejo Meiling, Horst / Unteroffizier.
On 01/25/1939 died due to AA fire over Barcelona Meister, Walter / Leutnant.
On 01/27/1939 perished due an aerial accident in zaragoza Kollig, Gustav / Unteroffizier.
On 01/29/1939 perished after colliding a mountain at night in Arrens Bötger, Claus / Leutnant; Seiler, Fritz / Unteroffizier; Möller, Armin / Unteroffizier; Adler, Otto / Unteroffizier.
On 05/02/1939 died in a car accident in Tarragona Penderak, Karl / Obergefreiter.
On 05/02/1939 perished after colliding against a mountain in Cervia Brückers, Walter / Unteroffizier; Hoffmann, Willi / Unteroffizier; Schnabel, Rudolf / Unteroffizier.
On 03/12/1939 killed during a explosion in bomb load in Madrid Härle, Friedrich / Oberstleutnant; Pawelcik, Hans / Oberleutnant; Kollenda, Rudolf / Oberfeldwebel; Lange, Walter / Oberfeldwebel; Schrödel, Hans / Unteroffizier; Buttner, Harry / Unteroffizier.
On 04/13/1939 perished in a car accident in San Rafael Mais, Günther / Unteroffizier.
On 04/22/1939 perished in a car accident in San Rafael Langrock, Kurt / Unteroffizier.

Sources: http://forum.panzer-archiv.de/viewtopic ... or&start=0
http://www.aviationcorner.net/gallery_e ... ype_id=952

Cheers. Raúl M 8-).

Feliz Navidad - Feliz Natal - Frohe Weihnachten - Joyeux Noël - Merry Christmas - Wesołych Świąt!. :D

durb
Member
Posts: 628
Joined: 06 May 2014 09:31

Re: K/88 of Legion Condor

Postby durb » 09 Dec 2014 21:00

Of those "car accident" related deaths I have read that they were most often the result of dangerous mix of cheap Spanish wine and tendency to drive cars fast - with other words they did drive often drunk and fast, which is perhaps as dangerous as to fly combat sortie. It is not a secret that alcohol consumption was quite high among the men of Legion Condor when they were "off the duty". In any case these cases can not be considered real KIA cases. Not any more than all non-combat related sickness cases.

The accident death rate seems to have been quite high when related to total personal losses of LC. It is a matter of taste if they are classified as KIA cases or not - I would limite them only on those cases which happened during combat sorties (like crashing to mountain due to bad weather during combat mission etc.). It could be interesting to compare the accident death rates between different air forces - it could show the real differences in the level of mechanical maintenance, engine reliability and also in pilot skills. Less trained men make more fatal mistakes than better trained. Also new and technically advanced planes could be tricky - Bf 109 was not a easy bird to master and often grounded due to technical problems. I guess that it was easier to learn to fly Fiat CR 32 which was also easier plane for mechanics to handle.

For the real combat losses should be in my opinion counted only those caused by enemy - AA or enemy aircraft. Enemy caused loss records show how intense the combat was in different times and they are also valuable information for anyone, who tries to figure out the real results of air combats and AA fire.

User avatar
tigre
Member
Posts: 6585
Joined: 20 Mar 2005 11:48
Location: Argentina

Re: K/88 of Legion Condor

Postby tigre » 08 Jan 2015 13:37

Hello to all :D; something more.....................

The K/88 in the Legion Condor.

Sources: http://www.ebay.de/sch/Fotos-Briefe-Pos ... c=48&rt=nc

Could be a He-111E? due to the marking code 25o60.....TIA. Cheers. Raúl M 8-).
You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post.

durb
Member
Posts: 628
Joined: 06 May 2014 09:31

Re: K/88 of Legion Condor

Postby durb » 09 Jan 2015 21:05

I´m not sure, but I think that the E-Heinkels started from 25-63 according to Laureau book "Condor", so 25-60 would be still a B (B-2) as it is written also under the photo. But I advice to check from other sources and ask from better experts.

User avatar
Ironmachine
Member
Posts: 4972
Joined: 07 Jul 2005 10:50
Location: Spain

Re: K/88 of Legion Condor

Postby Ironmachine » 10 Jan 2015 09:09

Different sources give different information, some say that 25o60 was a B model and some say that it was an E model. I think it is a He 111E.

User avatar
tigre
Member
Posts: 6585
Joined: 20 Mar 2005 11:48
Location: Argentina

Re: K/88 of Legion Condor

Postby tigre » 10 Jan 2015 13:57

Thanks pals :wink:. Cheers. Raúl M 8-).

User avatar
tigre
Member
Posts: 6585
Joined: 20 Mar 2005 11:48
Location: Argentina

Re: K/88 of Legion Condor

Postby tigre » 14 Jan 2015 20:28

Hello to all :D; something more.....................

The K/88 in the Legion Condor.

Sources: Hitler's Stuka Squadrons: The JU 87 at War 1936-1945. Escrito por John Ward

Cheers. Raúl M 8-).
You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post.

User avatar
tigre
Member
Posts: 6585
Joined: 20 Mar 2005 11:48
Location: Argentina

Re: K/88 of Legion Condor

Postby tigre » 05 Aug 2015 00:05

Hello to all :D; something more................

The K/88 in the Legion Condor.

The destroyed fuselage of the 25o13 (He-111B) .................

Source: Konvolut - Legion Condor - Wehrmacht - Spanienkreuzträger - kein Fotoalbum 200 F eBay

Can anyone provide more data about it? Cheers. Raul M 8-).
You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post.

durb
Member
Posts: 628
Joined: 06 May 2014 09:31

Re: K/88 of Legion Condor

Postby durb » 05 Aug 2015 00:51

The plane belonged to 4.K/88 (fourth Staffel - meaning 4th flight or squadron of bomber group 88). It was called also "Pedro 13". Of the 4.K/88 losses Laureau mentions couple which might relate to "Pedro 13":
He 111 lost due to bad landing on 18.8.1937 at Reinosa (Cantabria)
He 111 crashed at Alfaro on 25.4.1938 (collision with another He 111 which managed to land).

User avatar
tigre
Member
Posts: 6585
Joined: 20 Mar 2005 11:48
Location: Argentina

Re: K/88 of Legion Condor

Postby tigre » 12 Jan 2016 23:48

Hello to all :D; just now and after a while I saw your reply, thank you very much and sorry for this delay :wink:. something more................

The K/88 in the Legion Condor.

Source: Konvolut - Legion Condor - Wehrmacht - Spanienkreuzträger - kein Fotoalbum 200 F eBay

Cheers. Raul M 8-).
You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post.


Return to “Spanish Civil War & Legion Condor”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: CommonCrawl [Bot]