Fiat CR 32 vs Polikarpov I-15/I-16

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durb
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Re: Fiat CR 32 vs Polikarpov I-15/I-16

#31

Post by durb » 16 Jul 2015, 14:43

The problem with Chatos seems to be settled on to question how many of "CA" -series planes were built into operational aircraft and entered in frontline service.

Interestingly the numbers of Fiat CR 32 imported to Spain and operational in SCW do vary equally much from one source to another:
J. Salas Larrazábal (1970) - 380 (but he gives also as low estimate as 300!)
Emiliani (1973) - 405
Alcofar Nassaes (1975) - 369 (but gives also higher estimates by other authors)
Maslov (2010) - 376
Loguloso (2010) - clearly more than 400, even up to 477

Most of planes ended up to Italian air contingent Aviación Legionaria (Aviazione Legionaria), but Fiat CR 32 was also the main fighter of Spanish Nationalist Air Force (Aviación Nacional). According to Alcofar N. Aviación Nacional received 127 Fiat CR 32´s - of these 100 were imported directly to serve in Aviación Nacional and 27 handed by Aviación Legionaria.

Of the combat losses of Fiat CR 32 there are also different estimates:

Pedriali (1992): in total 94 combat losses, of which 76 in air combat - I guess that these numbers include only losses by Aviación Legionaria but not those of Aviación Nacional?

Alcofar Nassaes (1975) - in total 72/73 Fiat CR 32´s were lost in combat by Aviación Legionaria, the Aviación Nacional lost 43 Fiat CR 32´s for all causes during SCW (but how many of these 43 losses were combat losses?)

Maslov (2010) - 73 Fiat CR 32 combat losses by Aviación Legionaria and 26 combat losses by Aviación Nacional - so in total 99 Fiats were lost in combat during SCW - seem quite reasonable numbers compared to above but I do not know how these losses are divided between air combat losses and those shot down by enemy AA. There were also some mid-air collisions in combat resulting with 100 % loss of airframe but were these counted as combat losses or accident losses?

When it comes to German planes sent in SCW my impression is that their numbers by different types have been quite well mapped and there is not such variation of numbers as there is with I-15´s and Fiat CR 32´s.

About the number of I-16´s in SCW my impression is that estimates are settled somewhere around 270 - 285, so not such great variation as with I-15 or Fiat CR 32. According to Maslov Soviet shipped 276 I-16´s to Spain + 4 UTI version trainers. IIRC, Republicans built few I-16´s in Spain and these were equipped with American Wright-Cyclone engines. The number of these Spanish-built "Moscas" (or "Supermoscas"?) was not big - only four "Hispano-Moscas" + couple of Spanish-built UTI-versions were taken in service, IIRC.

About the I-15 bis I have read that Soviets planned to ship as many as 91 to Spain but only 31 arrived and were taken in service by Republican Air Force. Of these 29 survived to escape to France and 20 of these "exiled" planes were later returned to Spain. From the historical perspective I-15 bis had almost nonexistent combat role in airwar of SCW although "Superchato" may attract some kit modellers as a less common subject.

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Ironmachine
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Re: Fiat CR 32 vs Polikarpov I-15/I-16

#32

Post by Ironmachine » 16 Jul 2015, 16:10

VG 33 wrote:I can help, from soviet account on 08/07/1937 for instance, but there a lot of them.

So for the I-15:

On line (airworthy): 29
In factory repair : 15
In France : 4
Lost (all kind of reasons) : 35
Disabled (spare parts) : 08
Sent to Northern Front (from central Spain) : 25

It makes 116, no? Add the 15 I-15 from the Tourjansky squadron directly shipped to Bilbao in november 1936 it makes the 131 number.
I don't see any mystery about soviet made chato's use, in Spain.
Despite how well the numbers fit in that account, there are some problems that are not to be dismissed so easily. Whether this is an account of the I-15s received in Spain till that date, or an account of only the I-15s received in the Republic's central area, it is clear that those I-15s sent directly to the North are missing. And while the addition of the 15 I-15 shipped to Bilbao in November 1936 nicely rounds up the total number to 131, the Spanish sources I know agree that a further batch of 15 I-15 was shipped to the North at the beginning of 1937. That would mean a mínimum total of 146 Soviet I-15s, if true; and while I'm not saying it's true, it would need further proving or disproving before taking anything for granted.
Do you have similar accounts for August, September, October 1937?


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Re: Fiat CR 32 vs Polikarpov I-15/I-16

#33

Post by durb » 18 Jul 2015, 15:56

The number of operationally used Chatos at Northern front was in total 45 according to Permuy Lopez (Spanish Republican Aces 2012, p. 29-30) composed of these elements:
- 15 shipped in November 1936
- 6 arrived on 22.5.1937 (Gil group, flown from central Spain)
- 10 arrived on 24.5.1937 (Riverola group, flown from cental Spain)
- 10 arrived on 2.7.1937 (Puparelli group, flown from central Spain?)
- 4 arrived few days later on July 1937 (Comas group, flown from central Spain?)

I have seen the total number of 131 of Soviet-manufactured Chatos involved in SCW to be repeated in different sources (Maslov, Permuy Lopez + miscellaneous web sources) and that number should include also Chatos operational in North. The last Chatos sent to North were those arriving in early July 1937 so they were all Soviet-built CC-planes as the production and delivery of CA-planes had not started yet. To my knowledge the first plane of CA-series (CA-001) was delivered to Republican Air Force on 21.7.1937.

Anyway the bigger question is how many "Hispano-Chatos" (CA-series) were built to operational machines? - it seems that 231 were made, at least various sources agree on this number - details in Spanish: http://www.sbhac.net/Republica/Fuerzas/ ... tosFab.htm - thus we end up to 131 imported + 231 "made in Spain" making the total number of Chatos in SCW to 362.

I wonder how much there was rebuilding of wreckages of written offs in new planes? For example some wreckages of CC-planes may well have been recycled to build a new CA-plane.

Also the number of Fiat CR 32´s sent to Spain from Italy is confusingly different in different sources - how to explain the big estimate differences (varying from 300 - 477) in different books and this contoversy continuing even up to 2010´s? (Maslov 2010 - 376; Loguloso 2012 - 477?). The very lowest estimate 300 by Ramon Salas Larrazábal (La intervencion extranjera y las ayudas extranjeras 1970, p. 423) looks to be far too low and Alcofar (La aviación legionaria en la guerra española 1975, p. 341-342) thinks that 370-380 is more correct. A part of different numbers may be explained by the simple count difference between all imported Fiat CR 32 to Spain and those delivered to Italian air units. In total import numbers of Fiats one should include also those delivered directly to Spanish Nationalist air units (100 according to Alcofar) - so perhaps 370-380 went to Italian units + 100 delivered directly to Spanish units making it together 470-480? But perhaps not that simple...

Quite recent book of Loguloso (Fiat CR 32 Aces of Spanish Civil War 2010) states that the number of Fiats shipped to Spain was well above 400 and as many as 477 were "involved" in SCW (p. 9 and the backcover). However in the latter figure ("involved in SCW") I guess that there is the issue of about 50 rebuilt machines from the wrecks of written off planes (Loguloso, p. 9), so probably 420-430 were imported from Italy and some 50 were "made in Spain" from recycled parts.

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Re: Fiat CR 32 vs Polikarpov I-15/I-16

#34

Post by Ironmachine » 18 Jul 2015, 17:49

durb wrote:The number of operationally used Chatos at Northern front was in total 45 according to Permuy Lopez (Spanish Republican Aces 2012, p. 29-30) composed of these elements:
- 15 shipped in November 1936
- 6 arrived on 22.5.1937 (Gil group, flown from central Spain)
- 10 arrived on 24.5.1937 (Riverola group, flown from cental Spain)
- 10 arrived on 2.7.1937 (Puparelli group, flown from central Spain?)
- 4 arrived few days later on July 1937 (Comas group, flown from central Spain?)
And as can be seen this estimation in not in agreement with the soviet account on 08/07/1937 that VG 33 included in his previous post. In that account the number of 25 I-15s was given as sent to the Northern Front from central Spain, and Permuy López is giving a number of either 26 or 30 for that date, depending on the date of arrival of Comas group.

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Re: Fiat CR 32 vs Polikarpov I-15/I-16

#35

Post by VG 33 » 19 Jul 2015, 12:17

Ironmachine wrote: Despite how well the numbers fit in that account, there are some problems that are not to be dismissed so easily. Whether this is an account of the I-15s received in Spain till that date, or an account of only the I-15s received in the Republic's central area, it is clear that those I-15s sent directly to the North are missing. And while the addition of the 15 I-15 shipped to Bilbao in November 1936 nicely rounds up the total number to 131, . That would mean a mínimum total of 146 Soviet I-15s, if true; and while I'm not saying it's true, it would need further proving or disproving before taking anything for granted.
Do you have similar accounts for August, September, October 1937?
1) Yes I have! For september 1937, the 9th. (Abrossov's book p 382)

I-15
Recieved: 116 + 4* (* spanish ones from Reus)
Lost in a/c, fall on ennemy side: 15
Lost in a/c, fall on respublican side: 23
lost in accidents: 3
Lost from A/A, fall on res. side: 2
lost from A/A, fall on ennemy side: 1
Disbled for spare parts: 12
Total loss: 6
Field repair: 4
Factory repair: 9
On line: 21
Transmitted to N/F: 30

I let you verify; cause some surprises....


2) What kind off Spanish sources you know are agreeing that a further batch of 15 I-15 was shipped to the North at the beginning of 1937, please ?

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Re: Fiat CR 32 vs Polikarpov I-15/I-16

#36

Post by VG 33 » 19 Jul 2015, 15:08

paulrward wrote:Hello Mr. Ironmachine ;

We both know that the I-152 ( I-15 bis ) fought in Spain. I would like you to give me the Soviet serial numbers of the airframes and the engines of all 31 I-152s that reached Spain, along with the squadrons they flew in, and the names of ALL of the republican pilots who flew them.

If you can provide me with that detailed a level of information from your undoubted complete access to the complete archives of the Spanish Republican Air Force, then you are certainly entitled to doubt Mr. Victor's story.

Respectfully ;

Paul R. Ward
M Ward.

Thank's to M. Victor's testimony.
Did he told you anything else about Polikarpov planes qualities in flight vs Fiat or Messerschmitt ?

Just for curuisity, about the "French" I-153, a link here:
http://www.pyperpote.tonsite.biz/listin ... Itemid=102

In fact under german ugly green, guenine russian bright "gull's gray" was discovered, and serial n° 7277M.
Thus, it allowed to reconstitude plane's story: accepted by red air force in 24 january 1940, it served mainly in Lithuany were it was captured in June 1941, the 26th by germans altogether with a MiG-3, on it's airfield.
Quickly restored, it made a "triumphal tour" allover Europe to finish at a milirary depot in Nanterre near Paris. If the MiG had disappeared, the I-153 by a mysterious way, foud it's place in Meudon's museum.

Regards
Last edited by VG 33 on 20 Jul 2015, 07:01, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Fiat CR 32 vs Polikarpov I-15/I-16

#37

Post by Ironmachine » 19 Jul 2015, 18:45

VG 33 wrote:1) Yes I have! For september 1937, the 9th. (Abrossov's book p 382)

I-15
Recieved: 116 + 4* (* spanish ones from Reus)
Lost in a/c, fall on ennemy side: 15
Lost in a/c, fall on respublican side: 23
lost in accidents: 3
Lost from A/A, fall on res. side: 2
lost from A/A, fall on ennemy side: 1
Disbled for spare parts: 12
Total loss: 6
Field repair: 4
Factory repair: 9
On line: 21
Transmitted to N/F: 30

I let you verify; cause some surprises....
Yes, there are indeed surprises. For example, if one adds up all the categories, the total reached is: 126!, when there was supposedly a total of 120 at the time (including the Spanish ones). Or if one considers both accounts (the one dated 08/07/1937 and this one from september), the data about I-15s sent to the North Front disagrees with Permuy Lopez's book as cited by durb.
VG 33 wrote:2) What kind off Spanish sources you know are agreeing that a further batch of 15 I-15 was shipped to the North at the beginning of 1937, please ?
Can't remember all of them off the top of my head, but for example it is mentioned by Jesús Salas Larrazábal in "Cazas Rusos en la Guerra Civil: Historia del I-15 en España" (Modelismo e Historia No. 1) and in Historia general de España y América, Volumen 17. And then there is the note dated 17/03/1937 from cabinet minister Prieto to Federica Montseny in which he states that the number of biplane fighters received from the Soviet Union in the North was 30. It could well be a mistake, but the point that I was trying to make when I remarked that was that if you were going to present the number of 131 as the ultimate answer to the question of how many Soviet I-15 reached Spain, you needed a better support than an account that was limited to the Región Centro-Sur until July 1937.
Last edited by Ironmachine on 20 Jul 2015, 08:23, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: Fiat CR 32 vs Polikarpov I-15/I-16

#38

Post by paulrward » 19 Jul 2015, 19:58

Hello Mr. VG33 ;

According to Mr Victor, he flew three types of fighters in combat in Spain.

The first was the Hispano Nieuport 52, which was the first fighter he had ever flown, and second militaryh aircraft he had flown, the first being a Breguet 19, which he had flown for about 15 minutes for his acceptance qualification. He described the Nieuport as being about 10 years old, and that the engine leaked oil and would run very hot at full power. ( He described how, right after takeoff, he would throttle back and circle the field until the other aircraft joined up, allowing the engine to cool slightly before having to climb to patrol altitude. He stated that the guns were hand operated by a lever operated cable on the control stick that resembled the brake handle on a modern 10 speed bicycle. The gun belts were very poor quality, the links tended to come apart and jam the guns. The Nieuport he flew was fitted with a telescopic sight that he found impossible to use, and so he would simply look next to it, sighting along it's outside edge.

The Republicans quickly discovered that they were badly outclassed by the Heinkels of the Fascists, and they tended, when attacked, to try to fly in defensive circles. This was at best a poor defense, and by the end of September, most of the Nieuports were either shot down or, as in the case of Mr. Victor's, had been written off in accidents. Mr. Victor stated that he was coming in for a landing, and the next thing he remembered, he was in bed with a severe headache and minor injuries. He was told that the Nieuport had shed a wheel on landing, and ground-looped before doing a nose-over onto it's back, and that he was pulled unconscious from the wreckage.

The next aircraft he flew on patrols, though never engaged in combat with, was the I-16. Mr. Victor described it as a very difficult aircraft for him to fly, having a very high landing speed. (The I-16s in Spain had no wing flaps, and a two-position prop ) The landing gear required a lot of 'care and feeding' to make it work right, and he never was comfortable in the I-16. It was much faster than the Fiats and the Heinkels, and the pilots who flew them apparently had little trouble dealing with these two aircraft, making 'hit and run' attacks in which their high speed and ability to zoom climb away gave them a tremendous advantage.

After about two weeks, during which he had, according to his logbook, flown on 5 patrols, he was approached by the Russian Squadron Commander, and informed that there was a Spanish Pilot who was a much better pilot, and who was flying I-15s, but wanted to fly the I-16. The implication was, "You aren't good enough to fly this airplane, and he is, so why don't you trade squadrons with him ?" Mr. Victor happily accepted, and as he had flown the I-15 at El Carmoli, the transition was very easy.

He then flew as a ' supernumery pilot ' in Esc.3, for the rest of the war. His description of the I-15 made it clear that, as an aircraft, it was easily his favorite. He stated that the I-15 was faster than the Heinkels and just a fast as the Fiats. Against both aircraft, it could easily outclimb them, and in a tight, climbing turn, could turn rings around them. Both the Heinkel and the Fiat could outdive the I-15, and Republican pilots learned that if a Fascist fighter went into a dive, you NEVER followed them, for if you did, another Fascist aircraft would follow YOU down, and shoot you down.

The four guns of the I-15 were very reliable, and could be fired either singly, in pairs, or all together. In one combat, against a Messerschmidt 109, he described how the fire from all four guns caused the German aircraft to disintegrate like, in his words, " a pigeon hit by a 12 gauge shotgun ". He admitted that the superior speed of the Messerschmidt 109 made it a very frightening opponent, and that the 109's shot down a large number of I-15s in combat.

In other combats, against Fiats, he admitted that he was hard pressed, and used the maneuverability of the I-15 to evade the enemy aircraft until they broke off combat. From this, I gathered that he accepted the fact that he was not the Red Baron, and that he was more interested in staying alive than in running up a score.

The two Heinkels he claimed to have shot down were on missions in which the I-15s were attempting to break up Fascist ground attack aircraft, and, in effect, his squadron dove down on them from above and 'ambushed them'.



Now, as for numbers of I-15s in Spain: the Russians tended to supply aircraft in lots of 31 ( three squadrons of 10 each, and 1 headquarters aircraft ) Thus, a total of 120 I-15s, implies 4 lots of fighters.

The number of I-15s and I-16s built in Spain can be confusing. Some of the aircraft were pieced together from two or more aircraft, and given a new number. Some were completely rebuilt, and given a semi-new number, thus, CA-11 becoming CA-011 . And some I-15s were built from the ground up, as 'monkey-copies' of the Russian aircraft, and fitted with instruments, armament, and powerplants that could be scraped up in Spain or imported past the blockade.

This was relatively simple for the I-15, as it had a welded steel tube fuselage and wooden wings, which could be fabricated with the equipment and workers present in Spain. The I-16 was more complex, as the molded wooden fuselage and forged steel wing spar presented problems. The I-16s that were built in Spain, a small number, were not completed until after the war, and were powered by Spanish Built Elizalde engines. These aircraft continued in front line service as fighters with the impoverished Franco regime until the early 1950s, when they were scrapped. ( According to one source, they served as an aerial 'guard of honor' for Argentine dictator Juan Peron when he visited Spain in early 1950s.)

Respectfully ;

Paul R. Ward
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Re: Fiat CR 32 vs Polikarpov I-15/I-16

#39

Post by Ironmachine » 19 Jul 2015, 21:13

paulrward wrote:The I-16s that were built in Spain, a small number, were not completed until after the war,
Actually some (probably 4) were completed and entered service before the end of the war.
paulrward wrote:According to one source, they served as an aerial 'guard of honor' for Argentine dictator Juan Peron when he visited Spain in early 1950s
That source is wrong, because Perón did not come to Spain then. It was his wife, Eva Perón, who came to Spain in 1947, and the Iberia DC-3 that carried her around Spain was indeed escorted by some I-16s.

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Re: Fiat CR 32 vs Polikarpov I-15/I-16

#40

Post by VG 33 » 20 Jul 2015, 22:12

paulrward wrote:Hello Mr. VG33 ;

According to Mr Victor, he flew three types of fighters in combat in Spain.

The first was the Hispano Nieuport 52, which was the first fighter he had ever flown, and second militaryh aircraft he had flown, the first being a Breguet 19, which he had flown for about 15 minutes for his acceptance qualification. He described the Nieuport as being about 10 years old, and that the engine leaked oil and would run very hot at full power. ( He described how, right after takeoff, he would throttle back and circle the field until the other aircraft joined up, allowing the engine to cool slightly before having to climb to patrol altitude. He stated that the guns were hand operated by a lever operated cable on the control stick that resembled the brake handle on a modern 10 speed bicycle. The gun belts were very poor quality, the links tended to come apart and jam the guns. The Nieuport he flew was fitted with a telescopic sight that he found impossible to use, and so he would simply look next to it, sighting along it's outside edge.

The Republicans quickly discovered that they were badly outclassed by the Heinkels of the Fascists, and they tended, when attacked, to try to fly in defensive circles. This was at best a poor defense, and by the end of September, most of the Nieuports were either shot down or, as in the case of Mr. Victor's, had been written off in accidents. Mr. Victor stated that he was coming in for a landing, and the next thing he remembered, he was in bed with a severe headache and minor injuries. He was told that the Nieuport had shed a wheel on landing, and ground-looped before doing a nose-over onto it's back, and that he was pulled unconscious from the wreckage.

The next aircraft he flew on patrols, though never engaged in combat with, was the I-16. Mr. Victor described it as a very difficult aircraft for him to fly, having a very high landing speed. (The I-16s in Spain had no wing flaps, and a two-position prop ) The landing gear required a lot of 'care and feeding' to make it work right, and he never was comfortable in the I-16. It was much faster than the Fiats and the Heinkels, and the pilots who flew them apparently had little trouble dealing with these two aircraft, making 'hit and run' attacks in which their high speed and ability to zoom climb away gave them a tremendous advantage.

After about two weeks, during which he had, according to his logbook, flown on 5 patrols, he was approached by the Russian Squadron Commander, and informed that there was a Spanish Pilot who was a much better pilot, and who was flying I-15s, but wanted to fly the I-16. The implication was, "You aren't good enough to fly this airplane, and he is, so why don't you trade squadrons with him ?" Mr. Victor happily accepted, and as he had flown the I-15 at El Carmoli, the transition was very easy.

He then flew as a ' supernumery pilot ' in Esc.3, for the rest of the war. His description of the I-15 made it clear that, as an aircraft, it was easily his favorite. He stated that the I-15 was faster than the Heinkels and just a fast as the Fiats. Against both aircraft, it could easily outclimb them, and in a tight, climbing turn, could turn rings around them. Both the Heinkel and the Fiat could outdive the I-15, and Republican pilots learned that if a Fascist fighter went into a dive, you NEVER followed them, for if you did, another Fascist aircraft would follow YOU down, and shoot you down.

The four guns of the I-15 were very reliable, and could be fired either singly, in pairs, or all together. In one combat, against a Messerschmidt 109, he described how the fire from all four guns caused the German aircraft to disintegrate like, in his words, " a pigeon hit by a 12 gauge shotgun ". He admitted that the superior speed of the Messerschmidt 109 made it a very frightening opponent, and that the 109's shot down a large number of I-15s in combat.

In other combats, against Fiats, he admitted that he was hard pressed, and used the maneuverability of the I-15 to evade the enemy aircraft until they broke off combat. From this, I gathered that he accepted the fact that he was not the Red Baron, and that he was more interested in staying alive than in running up a score.

The two Heinkels he claimed to have shot down were on missions in which the I-15s were attempting to break up Fascist ground attack aircraft, and, in effect, his squadron dove down on them from above and 'ambushed them'.



Now, as for numbers of I-15s in Spain: the Russians tended to supply aircraft in lots of 31 ( three squadrons of 10 each, and 1 headquarters aircraft ) Thus, a total of 120 I-15s, implies 4 lots of fighters.

The number of I-15s and I-16s built in Spain can be confusing. Some of the aircraft were pieced together from two or more aircraft, and given a new number. Some were completely rebuilt, and given a semi-new number, thus, CA-11 becoming CA-011 . And some I-15s were built from the ground up, as 'monkey-copies' of the Russian aircraft, and fitted with instruments, armament, and powerplants that could be scraped up in Spain or imported past the blockade.

This was relatively simple for the I-15, as it had a welded steel tube fuselage and wooden wings, which could be fabricated with the equipment and workers present in Spain. The I-16 was more complex, as the molded wooden fuselage and forged steel wing spar presented problems. The I-16s that were built in Spain, a small number, were not completed until after the war, and were powered by Spanish Built Elizalde engines. These aircraft continued in front line service as fighters with the impoverished Franco regime until the early 1950s, when they were scrapped. ( According to one source, they served as an aerial 'guard of honor' for Argentine dictator Juan Peron when he visited Spain in early 1950s.)

Respectfully ;

Paul R. Ward
Thank you for this witness.
When did he flew the I-16 and where (i mean what unit), please?

Regards

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Re: Fiat CR 32 vs Polikarpov I-15/I-16

#41

Post by VG 33 » 21 Jul 2015, 08:48

Ironmachine wrote: I let you verify; cause some surprises....
Yes, there are indeed surprises. For example, if one adds up all the categories, the total reached is: 126!, when there was supposedly a total of 120 at the time (including the Spanish ones). Or if one considers both accounts (the one dated 08/07/1937 and this one from september), the data about I-15s sent to the North Front disagrees with Permuy Lopez's book as cited by durb.
1) Good remark of yours, but not such a surprise. Spaniards use to reassembly one plane with two, even two planes with three that were previously written off by russians for wear or combat damages. So balance is not equilibrated, there are two much losses in republican spain vs assets and the remaining planes.

2) Probably, the 6 totall losses could be included in the 12 disabled planes. 78 years after the report, all we can do si wondering...


Can't remember all of them off the top of my head, but for example it is mentioned by Jesús Salas Larrazábal in "Cazas Rusos en la Guerra Civil: Historia del I-15 en España" (Modelismo e Historia No. 1) and in Historia general de España y América, Volumen 17. And then there is the note dated 17/03/1937 from cabinet minister Prieto to Federica Montseny in which he states that the number of biplane fighters received from the Soviet Union in the North was 30. It could well be a mistake, but the point that I was trying to make when I remarked that was that if you were going to present the number of 131 as the ultimate answer to the question of how many Soviet I-15 reached Spain, you needed a better support than an account that was limited to the Región Centro-Sur until July 1937.
Why not to use soviet accounts from the northern front then? As you know (or should...) it was isolated from the rest of the spain. What is fun, is that soviet advisor was writing to Moscow at about the same time as Prieto, that Turjansky squadron was continually fighting from the beginning without any reinforcements of any kind, nor in men*, neither in machines, and that they were as exhausted as their planes.

Whatever, what is this information if we even don't know where the planes were taken from, when or where were they shipped, on what boat, where/when did they came, why weren't they taken in count in northern unit's OdB, or War Diaries?
What do your Spanish sources mean? I'v got 186 I-15 recieved from Juan Arraez Cerda, and except one, nothing from that source is corresponding to any precise truth of deliveries.

Regards

* In turn that point is doubtful. Spanish pilot's are mentioned in soviet sources from december 1936, in the northern I-15's squadron.

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Re: Fiat CR 32 vs Polikarpov I-15/I-16

#42

Post by Ironmachine » 21 Jul 2015, 10:29

VG 33, it's surprising that you are so you picky regarding the additional 15 I-15s in the North while you seem to be accepting the supposed "testimony" of Mr. Robert Victor with no problem. Then perhaps you should have no problem with the testimony of Andrés García Lacalle, who claimed in Mitos y verdades that all the Soviet aircraft batches received were made up of 31 planes, and that the 6 I-15s left from the first batch arrived in the beginning of 1937; that, if true, would put the number of Soviet I-15s received at 137-139 at least (leaving out the "additional" 15 from the North)!
However, you are right on all your points. Planes were reassembled, some categories could be included in other ones, the official documents don't agree... There is plenty of unknowns regarding the aircrafts. And all those points really only make my own point more strong: I am not claiming that 131 is not the right number of Soviet I-15s that reached Spain; I'm saying that no one can say, as you did (or at least imply when you said "I don't see any mystery about soviet made chato's use, in Spain."), that without any shadow of doubt 131 is the total number of Soviet-made "Chatos" that came to Spain.
Regards.

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Re: Fiat CR 32 vs Polikarpov I-15/I-16

#43

Post by VG 33 » 21 Jul 2015, 19:48

Ironmachine wrote:VG 33, it's surprising that you are so you picky regarding the additional 15 I-15s in the North while you seem to be accepting the supposed "testimony" of Mr. Robert Victor with no problem. Then perhaps you should have no problem with the testimony of Andrés García Lacalle, who claimed in Mitos y verdades that all the Soviet aircraft batches received were made up of 31 planes, and that the 6 I-15s left from the first batch arrived in the beginning of 1937; that, if true, would put the number of Soviet I-15s received at 137-139 at least (leaving out the "additional" 15 from the North)!
However, you are right on all your points. Planes were reassembled, some categories could be included in other ones, the official documents don't agree... There is plenty of unknowns regarding the aircrafts. And all those points really only make my own point more strong: I am not claiming that 131 is not the right number of Soviet I-15s that reached Spain; I'm saying that no one can say, as you did (or at least imply when you said "I don't see any mystery about soviet made chato's use, in Spain."), that without any shadow of doubt 131 is the total number of Soviet-made "Chatos" that came to Spain.
Regards.
Ironm, let's be clear.
It's not because i do appreciate M. Victor's romantic story, that i trust his numbers about deliveries.
I understand that 31 was a standart soviet "aviaescadrilia" strengh, but i perfectly know that currently, soviet and spanish freighters were crowded as they could with other goods and weapons, among crates with planes.

So from soviet merchant marine accounts, we have:

25 I-15 on the Karl Lepin
(20)* 30 in fact on the Darro
30 on the Mar Blanco
23 on the Arta Mendi
8 on the Cabo-Santo-Tome

+15 of course on the Andreiev to Bilbao.

* sometimes 20 in some freight documents, but 30 from others, and also 30 from technical service repport that assembled the batches and tested planes (116 I-15 in all for central spain), 30 by soviet commanders-advisers that recieved them all from previous service and dispatched to the units (116 +15 in all again). A type mismatch can we say.

I'm not making any neurosis from those 116 + 15, but frankly don't understand what else dou you want with your doubtfull western/spanish sources, as wrell as you already have 3 different organisations to count planes each way, but corroborating each other and if it's not still enough for you, we can add services collecting planes in USSR, then transporting it (soviet railways), and even charging it (port documents).

So when i read yours or Arraez Cerda's whismical 16 new Chato to Bilbao in january 1937, i can't forget thinking about other western/spanish "sources" and their imaginary "13 I-15 from Bolshevik, 12 others some days later, some I-15 from Giorgui Dmitrov in Alicante in 28th november, 31 new ones in january, 62 others in "spring" and 31 in july. And so on, and so on...

So what's the interest for that ? And how usefull to quote and take care about this numbers any more?

Regards

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Ironmachine
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Re: Fiat CR 32 vs Polikarpov I-15/I-16

#44

Post by Ironmachine » 21 Jul 2015, 21:31

I have no special interest in this matter. Another poster, durb IIRC, wondered about the number of Soviet I-15s that arrived in Spain, and I was surprised you were so sure about the number of I-15s because last time I look into that matter (admittedly, years ago), there was still space for disagreement. AFAIK (but I'm no expert in this field), there were ships whose documentation was not available. Anyway, I thought that the person asking would want to know all the possibilities and the sources supporting them, and would be wise enough to give each of them the importance they deserve. However, if you know all the ships that carried Soviet aircraft to Spain during the SCW and you happen to have the cargo manifest of all them, and from that documentation the number of I-15s arriving in Spain results to be 131, then I will happily concede that 131 was indeed the exact number of Soviet I-15s that arriived in Spain during the SCW. If...

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Re: Fiat CR 32 vs Polikarpov I-15/I-16

#45

Post by durb » 22 Jul 2015, 10:47

Well, the numbers of Soviet-built I-15´s (126-146?) in SCW seems anyway to be smaller than those "made in Spain" - of the latter figure 231 is something that seems to be established but open for further discussion? The Spanish aviation industry during SCW is a interesting subject - they had several projects (I-16, Fokker D XXI..) but the I-15 is by far the most important and most interesting. To my knowledge it was also the very first export-license deal of Soviet aircraft industry with foreign partner (although happened at the same time when Czechs started to build SB´s by license) - it would be interesting to know more about license arrangements.

Originally the British Hawker Fury was intended to replace the Nieuport 52 as a frontline fighter of Spanish Air Force and to be built by license in Spain. The Hawker Fury could have been a quite good opponent to Fiat CR 32 and Heinkel 51 (much better than Nieuport 52). My guess is that SCW and the following British "non-intervention" policy made the license building of Furys impossible in Spain so the license building of I-15 became an attractive option for Spanish Republicans. For the Soviets it was a type which was already phased out of production when the SCW started (IIRC, the series production of I-15 stopped in Soviet Union by 1935/1936 although the development of type continued and led to I-15 bis and I-153).

I´m quite sure that there are good articles and books covering the history of Spanish aircraft industry, specially the SCW period.

The Fiat was comparable to I-15 in many ways. It was numerically the most important fighter at Nationalist side as the I-15 was at the Republican side. It would be interesting to know details if Nationalists had also something like domestic "aircraft industry" in Spain? For example how were the 50 Fiat CR 32´s built from the wreckages of written off planes? Was that done in some central place or by field units? Could these "neo-Fiats" be labelled "made-in-Spain" also in the sense that it was principally Spanish engineers and mechanics who constructed them?

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